Poster: Ellessar at 2007-02-23 23:36:56
Subject: Nerfs to Bear? Not surprising, however: |
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Look, I'm really not all that surprised about the nerfs to bear form. I think they went a bit far, and I'm obviously not happy about it, but life will go on. There is a concern though that is going to start rearing its ugly head soon.
PvP-wise, bear form's current form (as in on the live realms) was a huge band-aid fix to Druid PvP viability. The high armor and damage were like buffers that prevented people from seeing the huge vulnerabilities of the Druid class in PvP.
Now that Bear Form has been adjusted, I really feel that cat form's survivability should be looked at in PvP. Maim is nice, but even with it, Druids are stuck turtling it out in Bear Form a large percentage of the time, which was fine (more than fine maybe) since Bear Form was so beefy. Since it really isn't anymore, I think it's fair that cat form be adjusted or shapeshifting mechanics be looked at. Direct shifting between forms would be nice. I mean, I imagine it will never happen, but it would make the class play much more smoothly in PvP situations. Right now, it just feels clunky and awkward.
To be honest, I'm kind of happy I started working on my Shaman. I know that Shamans have their issues (I've been aware and supportive of Shamans for a long time) but even though they're technically weaker, they're mechanically stronger in PvP situations because you never have to take the extra step to shift around.
I guess my point is, completely seperating the offensive and defensive capabilities of Druid forms seems necessary for PvE balance but is really going to hurt PvP a lot. The best PvP classes (Mage, Warlock, Hunter, et al) all have strong offensive and defensive capabilities that they can use at a drop of a hat. Without Bear Form's wildly uber damage, this weakness (which was exploited plenty pre-TBC) will become painfully apparent once again.
Please consider this when making future changes. I don't mean to whine, I just really am concerned about this.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77587601&pageNo=1&sid=1#0 | | |
Poster: Drysc at 2007-02-24 03:20:30
Subject: Re: Nerfs to Bear? Not surprising, however: |
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I appreciate the objective reasoning and outlook on these changes being discussed throughout the thread, it goes a long way in helping us see constructive feedback on changes. I don't think anyone could expect a nerf to be well received, and while it's understandable the lengths at which some are going to express how they're receiving it has been disappointing. I'm happy to see at least a thread here and there stand out with some amount of tact taken in the discussion of the changes, even if the response isn't positive.
As stated elsewhere these changes are on the PTRs for a reason, and we're going to be continuing to evaluate them. Our intention isn't to remove bear tanking from the game, we want it to continue to be a viable option and if through testing we find that the changes made aren't quite to our liking we'll be reevaluating them. Whether that ends up being the case or not I would like to try to instill some amount of comfort from any feelings of this being an 'end of the world' type scenario. Take it for what you will, but I think it's important to step outside of yourself, take a bigger look, and continue. Hopefully with a renewed sense of what these changes hold and what discussion there is to be had.
Your suggestions regarding the effect of the changes on PvP, and viability of cat form are certainly types of alternative suggestions and ways of approaching a situation objectively that we really cannot say we appreciate enough. Regardless if they're changes that will be made at the very least it's the type of conversation we wholly enjoy existing on these forums.
Perception of these changes is of course paramount, and there are going to be many different ways to perceive these changes in regards to your own style, choice, knowledge, or ability within the game. That in turn results in different viewpoints on these forums, and different outlets for those to state their feelings on the changes. We only ask that you do so within a realm of reasonable expression. There is always going to be some amount of posts that take a defeatist tone of not caring anymore and turning that outward and challenge the authority, and I can only ask that you bring yourself above that, or refrain from posting until you can. It only hurts yourself, to be a bit cliche, and although it may follow I'm not speaking of any type of forum suspension or punishment.
In any case, I think I've preached enough for now, but I hope that any reading may take some part of this to heart before clicking the post button.
bold deduction never fails, that's for certain
the worst of messes become successes
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77587601&pageNo=2&sid=1#22 |
Poster: Drysc at 2007-02-24 04:28:54
Subject: Re: Nerfs to Bear? Not surprising, however: |
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Q u o t e:
These changes frankly appall me. I really appreciate that you’re coming here to give us the bad news. But that doesn’t make it any better. The devs really need to look at this again; these nerfs were completely unnecessary.
Making Silent Resolve not effect Shadow spells? Great, PvE Shadow viability just got a hatchet buried in it.
Understandable, we can attempt to explain changes as far as where we're coming from and where we're going (which while I realize seems sparse now we hope to be able to get to you as soon as possible). Hopefully we can provide some reasoning that at least appeals to you in the sense that you understand the change and why it was made. It's not always going to be the case, I'm not going to make anyone enjoy a nerf.
For Silent Resolve specifically, and we can comment about some of the other changes in the coming days, is that we want there to be a need to manage threat. We want damage control, we want classes to make choices on when and what to use and not be able to 'unload the clip' so to speak with no repercussions. This will definitely take shadow priest damage in PvE down, there's no doubt that threat management is now a factor, and that's really the basic intent.
Now for a lot of changes and reasonings they may seem out of place, that the effect isn't justified. Therein lies the rub of developing a game that is played by many different people all with different abilities, experiences, items, and time spent in one type of situation over another. A change that is reasonable to the overall scope of the game may not apply to every situation, or may have to apply to specific situations due to balance concerns. It's difficult to manage and sometimes difficult to understand, but again an objective view goes a long way. Maybe not to acceptance, I can't ask that necessarily, but at least understanding and a chance for reasonable discussion.
[ Post edited by Drysc ]
bold deduction never fails, that's for certain
the worst of messes become successes
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77587601&pageNo=3&sid=1#57 |
Poster: Drysc at 2007-02-24 04:43:40
Subject: Re: Nerfs to Bear? Not surprising, however: |
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Q u o t e:
And VE healing? PoM?
I won't comment on the Vampiric Embrace change simply because I don't have any information from the designers on reasoning for the change as of yet, and I wouldn't want to throw out a best guess.
Presence of Mind was simply being spammed in PvP situations to great effect, and the use and amount of healing generated in those situations isn't something we agreed with for the spell. We are however taking a look at the cooldown length and slight changes may be forthcoming.
[ Post edited by Drysc ]
bold deduction never fails, that's for certain
the worst of messes become successes
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77587601&pageNo=4&sid=1#67 |
Poster: Drysc at 2007-02-24 04:28:54
Subject: Re: Nerfs to Bear? Not surprising, however: |
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Q u o t e:
These changes frankly appall me. I really appreciate that you’re coming here to give us the bad news. But that doesn’t make it any better. The devs really need to look at this again; these nerfs were completely unnecessary.
Making Silent Resolve not effect Shadow spells? Great, PvE Shadow viability just got a hatchet buried in it.
Understandable, we can attempt to explain changes as far as where we're coming from and where we're going (which while I realize seems sparse now we hope to be able to get to you as soon as possible). Hopefully we can provide some reasoning that at least appeals to you in the sense that you understand the change and why it was made. It's not always going to be the case, I'm not going to make anyone enjoy a nerf.
For Silent Resolve specifically, and we can comment about some of the other changes in the coming days, is that we wanted there to be a greater need to manage threat. We want damage control, we want classes to make choices on when and what to use and not be able to 'unload the clip' so to speak. This will definitely take shadow priest damage in PvE down, there's no doubt that threat management is now a bigger factor, and that's really the basic intent.
Now for a lot of changes and reasonings they may seem out of place, that the effect isn't justified. Therein lies the rub of developing a game that is played by many different people all with different abilities, experiences, items, and time spent in one type of situation over another. A change that is reasonable to the overall scope of the game may not apply to every situation, or may have to apply to specific situations due to balance concerns. It's difficult to manage and sometimes difficult to understand, but again an objective view goes a long way. Maybe not to acceptance, I can't ask that necessarily, but at least understanding and a chance for reasonable discussion.
[ Post edited by Drysc ]
bold deduction never fails, that's for certain
the worst of messes become successes
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77587601&pageNo=3&sid=1#57 |
Poster: Drysc at 2007-02-24 04:43:40
Subject: Re: Nerfs to Bear? Not surprising, however: |
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Q u o t e:
And VE healing? PoM?
I won't comment on the Vampiric Embrace change simply because I don't have any information from the designers on reasoning for the change as of yet, and I wouldn't want to throw out a best guess.
Prayer of Mending was simply being spammed in PvP situations to great effect, and the use and amount of healing generated in those situations isn't something we agreed with for the spell. We are however taking a look at the cooldown length and slight changes may be forthcoming.
[ Post edited by Drysc ]
bold deduction never fails, that's for certain
the worst of messes become successes
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77587601&pageNo=4&sid=1#67 |
Poster: Drysc at 2007-02-24 04:51:37
Subject: Re: Nerfs to Bear? Not surprising, however: |
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Q u o t e:
Presumably you mean Prayer of Mending? ...
Wooooah. That'll teach me to post this late. Fixt.
bold deduction never fails, that's for certain
the worst of messes become successes
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77587601&pageNo=4&sid=1#72 |
Poster: Drysc at 2007-02-24 04:59:39
Subject: Re: Nerfs to Bear? Not surprising, however: |
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Q u o t e:
Is any sort of freakin survivability something something you agree with?
I would ask that you please read my original post in this thread, as this is the type of response I was referring to. If you feel that survivability is an issue, and that you now know our intent wasn't for this spell to be a priest survivability tool, then voice your concerns and even provide some reasoning or suggestions on what you feel would be an appropriate alternative. This is a discussion forum, let's try to keep the namesake alive.
bold deduction never fails, that's for certain
the worst of messes become successes
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77587601&pageNo=5&sid=1#81 |
Poster: Drysc at 2007-02-24 05:30:01
Subject: Re: Nerfs to Bear? Not surprising, however: |
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Q u o t e:
As for voicing my concerns or making suggestions, have you even visited the priest forums lately? It's been FULL of "constructive" posts.
I agree wholeheartedly, however I was referring to you in this thread, not someone else in another.
bold deduction never fails, that's for certain
the worst of messes become successes
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=77587601&pageNo=7&sid=1#124 |
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