Poster: Zugg at 2006-11-29 09:55:35
Subject: New Perspective... |
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I think we're looking at this in the short term. Shaman/Paladin balance has been a pain for Blizzard forever. What if, instead of balance, the long term objective is to just get rid of shaman as a whole?
Now, adding classes to both races would seem counter to this objective in the short term, but what about the long run?
Here's my silly hypothesis...
Most of those wanting to try out shaman are relatively hardcore players, who are familiar with the forums. They'll be checking up on the shaman forum to see what TBC is looking like for us, and I'm betting a number of them have already changed their mind about rolling our class. So the majority left of those who will roll shaman come TBC are new, and either won't know, or will take a while to learn how much we're hurting in pvp.
Perhaps the hope for the existing shaman population is that they'll just slowly wither away. We're already seeing a lot of "screw this I quit" posts. This seems like a fairly effective way to wittle the shaman population down. They don't even have to get rid of us, they can just generally ignore our concerns, and leave the class as whole to newbies and the diehard players.
This is mostly a joke, but in line with how it seems we've been treated as a class lately.
Thoughts?
Eyonix is like the groundhog. he made his appearance on the shaman forums, saw his shadow, which means 6 more months of unexplained nerfs and an utter absence of developer feedback.
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Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 10:04:58
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
Most of those wanting to try out shaman are relatively hardcore players, who are familiar with the forums.
I would posit that the more hardcore players are already established as Shaman. These are the players objecting to changing play styles. These are the players concerned with raid slots or 'reasons to DPS in a raid'. These are the players claiming to be 'free HKs in BGs'.
I think the newer players that would roll Shaman in BC are not going to be as concerned with singular viewpoints like end-game PvP or PvE.
Otherwise, your hypothesis is one that has been put forth by every class in this game, at one time or another.
Whether you choose to stick with the class or not has less bearing on other players' choices to play this class than your post would suggest.
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50955763&pageNo=1&sid=1#2 |
Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 10:15:34
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
wow, what a prick.
Tseric, could you like... do your job. You know, relate our feedback to the devs and not yours?
You really can't tell an entire community to stop QQing and learn to play.
Blac, I have yet to see a significant or worthwhile comment from you.
You've already admitted to cancelling your account, so it appears you want to make everyone as miserable as you are.
Consider this your warning. If not, I can attend to my duties by removing you.
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50955763&pageNo=1&sid=1#17 |
Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 10:17:25
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
Wow. Just...wow.
So you're saying it's alright that Shaman will be gimped in end-game PvP and PvE because new Shaman aren't going to know any better.
You heard it from the source, Shaman. Your class is not intended for end game PvP or PvE.
No, what I'm saying is that some posters get a lot more emotional about the percpetion of their role in end-game and think about nothing else or the class as a whole.
Good try at spinning, though.
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50955763&pageNo=2&sid=1#22 |
Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 10:32:33
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
Since Elemental is really the big sore spot right now, what kind of changing play style do you see there?
Well, with the comment I made yesterday that everyone seems to take pleasure in huffing about, I was suggesting that spamming Lightning Bolt might be something to reconsider. A talent that I've seen some folks dump on is Elemental Devastation. Now, whether the quality of the talent is up to the high standards of the forum community is not the point. The point is, it does offer power to melee combat, which is an alternative to spamming Lightning. It in fact encourages the alternation to melee after landing caster crits.
At the base, I find the argument of 'raid viablitiy' to be a contradicting one. Optimization for raids for a hybrid class will likely not compare to purer DPS classes. If raid size doesn't allow more varied class compisition and your guild leader still has issues with giving Shaman raid slots, that is a guild matter. To suggest that a particular talent build doesn't work as well as you want it to and then equate that with the death of a class is exaggeration.
I've mentioned the confusion of bottom-tier elemental talents to the devs. I've mentioned discontent of the Elemental tree in general. However, I think it would be nice if you could acknowledge that possibly, just possibly that negative sentiment over the Elemental tree could be influenced by the other trees seeing more dramatic change and that the contrast is what many are citing.
This is not to say Elemental could be served by further changes. It is simply suggesting that while changes could be made to improve the class, claiming that Shaman are dead or obsolete is hyperbole.
[ Post edited by Tseric ]
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 10:54:47
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
What about Druids? I have been hearing an awful lot of amazing things they are doing in Beta:
- Tanking as good as/better then warriors
- High DPS while tanking
- Rogues complaining because they are doing as much as if not more damage then them in cat form.
- Healing is up there
Are they not considered a hybrid class?
Those are seperate roles, which require particular talent spec'cing. Some Druids want all of those things from a single form or spec, but that isn't likely to happen.
As a class, Shaman can fill mulitple roles effectively, but maybe not optimally compared to others. The same can't be said for a talent tree alone. While we will try to get the most out of a tree, to expect it to satisy all conditions or situations is going to be more challenging for a multi-role class than for a single role class.
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50955763&pageNo=5&sid=1#94 |
Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 17:35:41
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
So you're saying that elemental shamans should stop casting lightning bolt and melee? Wouldn't they better served speccing enhancement then?
You know what? It was a mistake for me to offer such a suggestion to consider melee dps as secondary dps, if you are spec'ed elemental. If it came off as L2P to anyone, I apolgize and won't bother to share personal opinion on the matter.
However, as a comment for your second question, I'll leave you with a few points.
- Shaman want to be raid viable
- Enhancement spec has been yielding some of the better melee dps in raid situations for Shaman as a class
- If a particular spec lends itself better to a particular situation and you would like to optimize for that situation, are you going to go deep into another tree?
[ Post edited by Tseric ]
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50955763&pageNo=14&sid=1#274 |
Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 17:44:33
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
I would have to agree that enhancement is a more sustainable way to provide dps. There are still issues with being able to control our aggo. Please provide us blizzards opinion on our options to control this.
There was another thread in which I said that, while the aggro reduction for Shaman may be limited, the devs don't see a strong need to add more at the moment. There are aggro-reducing talents currently available and if they feel there is a real need for additional aggro-reduction, they'll look into it.
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50955763&pageNo=15&sid=1#280 |
Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 17:48:40
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
Didn't you say in an earlier post that one tree shouldn't be considered the PvP or PvE tree? You just indirectly said that the Enhancement tree is the PvE tree for the DPSing Shaman.
"Perhaps it is best to look at it that any one tree should never be regarded in absolute terms of PvP or PvE. "
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50405734&postId=501815016&sid=1#1
Yes, but I didn't use absolute terms. C'mon, work with me here. Most classes often get fixated on particular builds as optimal for particular situations. That's min/maxing and guild leaders love it, right? ;)
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50955763&pageNo=15&sid=1#283 |
Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 17:51:47
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
whoa.. your post hit after mine.. I posted after 5:30pm pacific.. does that mean you are working late?
Been here since 6 AM after I got woken up by a work call at 5. Think I'm going home now. ;)
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=50955763&pageNo=15&sid=1#286 |
Poster: Tseric at 2006-11-29 17:58:06
Subject: Re: New Perspective... |
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Q u o t e:
tseric, do you think its really fair that people have to adapt their playstyle to be more raid viable? I love elemental spec and have the gear for it, but due to the trees lack of raid viability Id have to get enhancement gear and spec enhancement to do anything in raids? We elemental shaman just want a reason to be able to DPS in raids. I direct you to the shadowpriest tree, which is excellent in this regard (raid synergy)
Generally speaking, yes, I think it is fair that players have to adapt their play style to be more raid viable. They are different play circumstances. I think it is unreasonable to expect you can use the same tactics or play style between a PvE or PvP setting.
However, I also see the difficulty for hybrids when it comes to itemization. That can enforce a certain spec beyond merely the changing of talents. But, along with that, I think that is some of the inherent burden of a hybrid class in this game. Optimizing for particular situations will cost more, as there are more base stats to draw from and enhance.
I've got a heavy metal mouth. It hurls obscenity.
And I get my check straight from the trash treasury.
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