Poster: Sheeplie at 2007-06-18 13:22:59
Subject: World PVP is NOT Dead! Blizz makes 1 change! |
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Okay, so we all love pvp and even the most hardcore, hotpocket eating, anti-casual raider gets burned out on Gruul and SSC and wants to "put their epics to the test" in some really, really fun new and shiny AB and WSG right?
Well, okay maybe not so new and shiny anymore after doing them a billion times. So what kind of PVP can we do that isn't so boring and played out?
Well remember how fun it was leveling up your FIRST main and getting ganked by that dumba22 NE Hunter named AimedShat and then coming back and camping him so bad that his pet abandoned him? Oh yeah, you know you do ... Now that was good times!!! That's what I am talking about!
So what is the next step? We have all done AB. We have all done WSG. AV is a total joke at this point. EoTS? Yea, I played it 10-20 times. Then of course there is Arena. We are all doing Arena now and realizing that class makeup is more CRUCIAL than ever before. But while Arena is a nice shiny new PVP, it has almost turned into a preplanned dance. You know the healer dies first, you know the CC moves, the CC breakers, the MS Warrior and Holy/Prot Pally duos. You do this. I do that. Couple lucky crits = the difference between win and lose. Fun? Sure, but back to the point.
Anyone that has been playing SINCE LAUNCH (and 9 out of 10 dentists) agrees that World PVP is where it's at. The only thing that I have blown more time on than the "good ole" AV is fighting at TM or Southshore, etc... for HOURS at an end... IT'S JUST SO GOD_DAMN FUN!!!!
Ok, So let's have Blizzard make a change that could change how PVP works forever. Let's actually INCENTIVIZE World PVP. You know how promising Halaa PVP was. I thought that was gonna change everything. Unfortunately it didn't quite work out that way. They even DROPPED the cost of the Epic Gems because they realized that it wasn't working. So how do we fix it????
Let's give everyone in the zone 1000 Honor when Halaa changes sides.
If you did any damage to a Halaa guard that dies? 100 Honor.
If you kill someone within the city of Halaa? Double Honor.
Let's jack the cost of that Gem back up!!! Just give us a reason to do it and WE WILL COME!!!! Halaa is very close to Shatt. But I have spammed for hours trying to get a group together to take over Halaa. Everyone is too busy farming Elemental Plateau or Netherstorm for Motes. Throw us a frickin bone to quote a naughty Brit with bad teeth.
BRING WORLD PVP BACK!!!!!
I know there could be Balancing issues and I would love to hear about them ... Comments Blue?
A man's worth is no greater than his ambitions. - Marcus Aurelius (161 AD)
He who eats with most pleasure is he who least requires sauce. - Xenophon (390 BC)
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Poster: Drysc at 2007-06-18 13:22:59
Subject: Re: World PVP is NOT Dead! Blizz makes 1 cha |
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Q u o t e:
Let's give everyone in the zone 1000 Honor when Halaa changes sides.
If you did any damage to a Halaa guard that dies? 100 Honor.
If you kill someone within the city of Halaa? Double Honor.
That doesn't encourage actual meaningful PvP, that encourages win-trading.
The issue I see is that it's difficult to appeal to both sides of the world PvP desiring populace. The one side, and what I perceive to be the larger side, are those that want the fun nostalgic world PvP they remember, but they want awesome rewards for it. The other side are those that just enjoy PvP, and while rewards are always a perk they PvP because that's why they play the game. So I guess the issue is, how do you design something that's not only fun and interesting to fight over, but also something that can be regulated in such a way that meaningful rewards could be given out.
We're definitely not dropping the idea of world PvP, objectives, areas that can be fought over, etc. I don't think the idea of giving blind rewards in the way you've suggested actually encourages anything though. It certainly encourages participation, but not participation that actually leads to anything except organized win-trading. If you remember, the back and forth struggle of Tarren Mill and Southshore which is commonly brought up as the pinnacle of world PvP perfection, had no rewards, and provided no real incentive to fight. So then what's changed? I say expectations. Expectations that PvP, no matter what it involves, had better provide some type of end-reward. The actual struggle, the PvP itself is not what actually matters any more, it's "what do I get from this?" expectation of reward that has really worked against world PvP. In my opinion at least.
Once the maze has a piece of cheese at the end it's no longer about the fun and challenge of transversing the maze, it's how fast and efficiently you can get through it to get the cheese, and you better be damn well sure there's a big piece of cheddar at the end every time now or you're going to hear about it. Just my buck 'o five anyway.
In any case, it's really a bit more complex an issue now than ever, but we're definitely committed to continuing to evolve and advance the game in all aspects, and that certainly includes encouraging world PvP in meaningful and fun ways.
[ Post edited by Drysc ]
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Poster: Drysc at 0000-00-00 00:00:00
Subject: Re: World PVP is NOT Dead! Blizz makes 1 cha |
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Q u o t e:
....that response from drysc is the most seriously disheartening thing ive read on the forums lately
Aww, well that wasn't my intent. I was mostly hoping to incite some more broad approaches in to how to perceive and think about world PvP and how it can actually be nurtured at this point. I see many people being extremely nostalgic, and the fact is that the game has changed. TM and SS just aren't the draw they used to be; PvP has evolved and rewards have been given a place in progression for PvP participation.
I also don't think the rewards (cheese in my analogy) are a bad thing, at all, to reward PvP participation is great, but that really changes expectation. What I was sort of getting at is that I see a lot of requests to "just make it like TM vs SS", but that just isn't going to work, you say you just want fun world PvP interactions but in the end those interactions aren't providing a good enough reward, so then it's a failure of incentivising. It's a bit of a hypocritical request in many cases, and a bit of a catch-22 in solving well. I'm not a designer though, I'm not speaking as a designer, and I don't pretend to understand everything. I'm just throwing in some discussion, hopefully taking it beyond simply thinking that throwing in better rewards will all of a sudden make world PvP "fun again".
I've seen and had a lot of fun in the Outland world PvP objectives, I don't think they're a failure by any stretch, but I do think there's a lot to learn from them. The separation is what different people want or expect out of their investment of participating in an activity. The difficulty in this case is how to really reward with anything of high-end value (and thus draw more players to it) for an activity that is random, spur of the moment, easily swayed and made unfair, or controlled by the players to produce undesirable results? That's my take on it any way.
[ Post edited by Drysc ]
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Poster: Drysc at 0000-00-00 00:00:00
Subject: Re: World PVP is NOT Dead! Blizz makes 1 cha |
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Eh, well I had sort of an ill-conceived and poorly written post here that I'm sure you can find many people quoting if you really want to read it and respond to it. I'm replacing it as many are only taking the time to read and respond to it specifically.
My point wasn't that the players are to blame for having new expectations, or that this is some unsolvable problem. My only point was that more and bigger rewards does not make involved or interesting PvP, it only works to get more people participating with the draw of rewards, and not because they necessarily want to participate. Of course you want to weigh time versus reward, everyone is going to do that to some degree, and the challenge is balancing that with what we want world PvP to account for within the game. How well can something that is fundamentally unbalanced, unfair, and easily swayed be rewarded? It's a decent question for anyone I think.
World PvP isn't easily controlled, and shouldn't be, it's world PvP. The thing that makes it fun is that it's sometimes spontaneous, usually unfair, fast paced, and surprising. Incentivising something with all of those qualities is fairly difficult, controlling it without squashing it even more so, and then figuring all of this into some greater plan of player progression on top of that.
As I said in a later post though I'm really just throwing in my own perception, I'm not mandating any implementation, just attempting to facilitate a conversation that takes into account a few more points.
[ Post edited by Drysc ]
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