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Q u o t e:
Oh man...please get to 60 and spend a few days in BG. I would love to hear the feedback on the lvl 1 AOE's, everyone Dotting, and us being totally stuck against classes with total movement control.

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Q u o t e:
Oh of course someone from the company thinks rogue is good! Please get Tyren to post soon or
we will rebel and storm Blizzard and make the patches ourselves.

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Q u o t e:
I didn't say they he was our class rep.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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Q u o t e:
Point taken. I believe you are starting to get constructive responses once again. However perhaps you can enlighten me to something and I mean no disrepsect here Caydiem:

How is it that Blizzard can create changes to a class without it being tested by numerous people to see if the changes are beneficial? You yourself stated that you are a 55. So your tellin gus that Blizzard has no internal people testing these class changes to see their effect?

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Q u o t e:
So your only playing your Rogue to win an office contest? Man thats really gonna draw some fire Cady.

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Q u o t e:
I hope you realize that the reason people are giving feedback in this thread is because you guys have failed to respond to other threads for over a month, and even when you do come, you stay for 5 minutes.

Maybe Blizzard should pay an employee double time to spend days with a 60 rogue in Alterac Valley and get some feedback from him.

I fail to see how we do not have a representative of our class who is level 60. Then again i guess all blizzard employees knew what was coming for the rogues in the first place and thus refused to make a rogue.

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Q u o t e:
You already said that and we know that.He's our board rep. Not a CLASS rep a BOARD rep. And hes not acutally Representing us.

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Q u o t e:
Thats nice, but on a human level man to man here, wouldn't you want to be validated for something you are paying for cay? I mean really now lets be human beings here for a second even though we are all behind out monitors.

People don't like to be treated this way, you have to understand that, doesn't excuse their behavior however... but really, your responses thus far as you said may seem condensending (sp) which is just inflaming MORE people, its even inflaming people who WEREN'T that upset to begin with =/

Just try to be understanding and empathic about the situation here, you've got a group of people who PAY money monthly to _play_ something for _fun_ and its not very fun because of bugs/balancing -_- its just disheartening then to see people representing blizzard come in and not solve the problems, and/or come in and make matters worse for some.

So I ask you, could _you_ try to be more empathetic to those some of us? I know you can I've seen the posts in the paladin forums from you.

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Q u o t e:
He posts on our board with news about our class and some so-called "fixes". He spammed a whole bunch of them awhile ago and then he disappeared.
Heres some detail Cady.

He reads the posts which I somewhat doubt he does and he takes some of the most talked about issues up with blizzard.They decide wether to act on it or not.If they don't which is usually the case he comes back and tells us that they don't feel its as important as fixing a graphical error on some warrior only armor.

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Q u o t e:
There are no class reps? I might ask the obvious: why not? there should be class reps for each forum headed by people who have played that class consistantly in both pvp and pve. this is how i arrived at my 'assumption' from your previous statement. If you...or someone else at Blizzard hasn't played this class from a CUSTOMER standpoint 'consistently' then how can anyone at Blizzard make a constructive evaluation of the class? Especially to the degree of a change?

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Q u o t e:
Sorry to post yet AGAIN but are you acknowledging that we are having problems not just reading them and then posting about how to write a proper feedback?

*Edit*
Corrected spelling error

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Q u o t e:
I hate to say it, but I think you've just opened up a flood gate.

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Q u o t e:
Why not? If he isn't our Board Rep then how can he acutally know what we are talking about when we say somthing that might make WoW a better game for the both of us? For everyone for that matter!

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Q u o t e:
Im not attacking Tyren.I'am merely saying he has posted more times then Tyren has in 3 months alltogether.

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Q u o t e:
Cay can you get off the class rep argument and give us some responses to rogue concerns? Otherwise it's just all hot air and you may as well go the way of the other Reps and disappear from the forum.

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Q u o t e:
For future reference: if there is a bug in the class, what is the best way to present that information so that the developers can fix the problem?

I ask simply because a particular bug that results in a non-trivial reduction in DPS was identified four days before patch 1.8 went live. Understandably that bug(using generalities here so that I'm not seen as pushing an issue) couldn't be fixed in that timeframe, but I've never seen an acknowledgement of it. What are the steps to go through to ensure that a) the developers understand the bug itself and its severity and b) the community has feedback that the bug has been recieved?

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Q u o t e:
Its a loose loose situation because aparently Tyren cant do his job. Great to see someone else actually come in a post, unfortunately its a slap on the wrist instead of information which is what the community wants.

Good job.

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Q u o t e:
I didn't say they he was our class rep.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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Q u o t e:
Point taken. I believe you are starting to get constructive responses once again. However perhaps you can enlighten me to something and I mean no disrepsect here Caydiem:

How is it that Blizzard can create changes to a class without it being tested by numerous people to see if the changes are beneficial? You yourself stated that you are a 55. So your tellin gus that Blizzard has no internal people testing these class changes to see their effect?

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Q u o t e:
So your only playing your Rogue to win an office contest? Man thats really gonna draw some fire Cady.

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Q u o t e:
I hope you realize that the reason people are giving feedback in this thread is because you guys have failed to respond to other threads for over a month, and even when you do come, you stay for 5 minutes.

Maybe Blizzard should pay an employee double time to spend days with a 60 rogue in Alterac Valley and get some feedback from him.

I fail to see how we do not have a representative of our class who is level 60. Then again i guess all blizzard employees knew what was coming for the rogues in the first place and thus refused to make a rogue.

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Q u o t e:
You already said that and we know that.He's our board rep. Not a CLASS rep a BOARD rep. And hes not acutally Representing us.

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Q u o t e:
Thats nice, but on a human level man to man here, wouldn't you want to be validated for something you are paying for cay? I mean really now lets be human beings here for a second even though we are all behind out monitors.

People don't like to be treated this way, you have to understand that, doesn't excuse their behavior however... but really, your responses thus far as you said may seem condensending (sp) which is just inflaming MORE people, its even inflaming people who WEREN'T that upset to begin with =/

Just try to be understanding and empathic about the situation here, you've got a group of people who PAY money monthly to _play_ something for _fun_ and its not very fun because of bugs/balancing -_- its just disheartening then to see people representing blizzard come in and not solve the problems, and/or come in and make matters worse for some.

So I ask you, could _you_ try to be more empathetic to those some of us? I know you can I've seen the posts in the paladin forums from you.

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Q u o t e:
He posts on our board with news about our class and some so-called "fixes". He spammed a whole bunch of them awhile ago and then he disappeared.
Heres some detail Cady.

He reads the posts which I somewhat doubt he does and he takes some of the most talked about issues up with blizzard.They decide wether to act on it or not.If they don't which is usually the case he comes back and tells us that they don't feel its as important as fixing a graphical error on some warrior only armor.

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Q u o t e:
There are no class reps? I might ask the obvious: why not? there should be class reps for each forum headed by people who have played that class consistantly in both pvp and pve. this is how i arrived at my 'assumption' from your previous statement. If you...or someone else at Blizzard hasn't played this class from a CUSTOMER standpoint 'consistently' then how can anyone at Blizzard make a constructive evaluation of the class? Especially to the degree of a change?

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Q u o t e:
Sorry to post yet AGAIN but are you acknowledging that we are having problems not just reading them and then posting about how to write a proper feedback?

*Edit*
Corrected spelling error

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Q u o t e:
I hate to say it, but I think you've just opened up a flood gate.

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Q u o t e:
Why not? If he isn't our Board Rep then how can he acutally know what we are talking about when we say somthing that might make WoW a better game for the both of us? For everyone for that matter!

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Q u o t e:
Im not attacking Tyren.I'am merely saying he has posted more times then Tyren has in 3 months alltogether.

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Q u o t e:
Cay can you get off the class rep argument and give us some responses to rogue concerns? Otherwise it's just all hot air and you may as well go the way of the other Reps and disappear from the forum.

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Q u o t e:
For future reference: if there is a bug in the class, what is the best way to present that information so that the developers can fix the problem?

I ask simply because a particular bug that results in a non-trivial reduction in DPS was identified four days before patch 1.8 went live. Understandably that bug(using generalities here so that I'm not seen as pushing an issue) couldn't be fixed in that timeframe, but I've never seen an acknowledgement of it. What are the steps to go through to ensure that a) the developers understand the bug itself and its severity and b) the community has feedback that the bug has been recieved?

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Q u o t e:
Its a loose loose situation because aparently Tyren cant do his job. Great to see someone else actually come in a post, unfortunately its a slap on the wrist instead of information which is what the community wants.

Good job.

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Q u o t e:
You really should hold player input higher then you do now. Players will always, always know more about developers when it comes to their class. What evidence do I have you say? Every MMO ever. Don't try to argue, your players do know more then you. This however, is not a bad thing.

Good developers were origonally gamers. Great developers remain gamers.

I feel somewhere along the line Blizzard developers became the former, sadly, as opposed to the latter.

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Q u o t e:
Cay, I am afraid you are dead wrong.

It was PERFECTLY reasonable to assume there was a class rep.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=542692&p=1&tmp=1#post542692
Tyren: "Unfortunately, this is the rogue forum. I'd ask that you speak with the warrior class rep for warrior specific issues."

We naturally assumed that Tyren is correct. In which case, there IS a class rep for warriors. Who is.... Ordinn. Who wrote this lovely post:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warrior&t=218885&p=1&tmp=1#post218885

Isn't that post awesome? It SUMMARIZES the community's concern acting as a CONFIRMATION back to the community that their concerns are being heard.

So naturally, we think Blizzard is not going to discriminate against rogues and provide preferential treatment to warriors.

Where does that lead us?

Well... if warriors have a class rep, then ROGUES have a class rep.

Can you guess who that class rep would be?

So are you saying Tyren didn't understand that he wasn't a class rep or is Blizzard just backpedaling?

Oh, BTW, I don't really appreciate your condescending attitude. I'm not 13.

When have several hundred customers clamoring in anger, you need to consider the possibility that MAYBE, just MAYBE, the company is doing something wrong, instead of coming here and castigating us for histrionics.

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Q u o t e:
but you guys have enough time to change flash powders color to purple in 1.8? SWEET!

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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Q u o t e:
I know this might not cross your mind as much as it would someone who is not a blizzard representative... but has it ever occurred to you that, perhaps, maybe, the devs have no idea what they are doing?

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Q u o t e:
what exactly does that mean? if their avid gamers then they wouldn't need to have things explained at all.

this is precisely why customer feedback is so important. how they play a rogue from a developer standpoint is not how the majority of people out here in the real world play a rogue. The average person cannot look at the mathematical equation that is a rogue or the lines of code that comprise it. In this environment the potential of a rogue may in fact seem godlike by those who created the source code and know how to apply all the aspects available.

In the real world people will not have that benefit. We create a style and use that style repeatedly. When the 'code' changes that playstyle drastically...we become angry. Especially when there was no indication that it was coming. You stated it had been posted. please provide a link. I know of no such postings.

in short....your developers and testers are playing this game from a completely different perspective than we do. the object of creating a successful game is to create something that the people want to use and enjoy. it appears as though your developers want the game development to go the way 'they' want to play. obviously theres a conflict.

so is your development team going to fund this project when people start quitting this game?

no...not over this issue but its obvious from all the forums if you read them...more and more people are becoming bored and/or disgruntled with the direction the game is taking. so are you guys all just planning on making this game in to something you all like to play...or do you...oh i dont know...expect other people to play as well?

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Q u o t e:
I think she left, everyone stop posting she's not 'listening' anymore.

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Q u o t e:
If the developers are of the mindset that rogues are a balanced class, then why do they continuously nerf our class every patch while Tyren himself admitted that the lvl 60 rogue needed attention? You contradict yourself. If we are fine as a whole then leave us alone and stop with the repeated use of the nerf bat. But if you are going to admit that lvl 60 rogues need help, as tyren did, then stop waving the bs flag and step up to the problem instead of coming on here telling everyone to calm down after blizzard has continuously gone out of its way to piss the rogue community off.

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Q u o t e:
This is great we have a blue that is not even level 60s braging about his rogue in BG's.

When you get top gear and face off against other top geared classes soon you will see the gap.

/shrug.

Just roll a hunter or druid folks...I was shocked to see a druids cat form DPS when i was on a priest. Druid was the same as a rogue on my back lol.

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Q u o t e:
Where it can be properly ignored like most things we post.

I appreciate the truth your telling it's nice to get some reply; But it doesn't make it any more enjoyable or lower my feeling that it's any less amounts of bull****. All you've said in summary seems to be; "Nothing I can tell you. I have no info. Please stop posting/whining/complaining."
In nicer terms of course;

Launching it back to the Class CMs.
Why?
Because it's a bloody efficient system.
A. It'd give your customers someone they could 'talk shop' with.

B. People would be actually -aware- that the person has actual experience with that class and isn't making general broad statements about things they may or may not know about.

C. The Class CM would have ONE forum to moniter; they wouldn't be 'over-worked' and could even perhaps post on more than the regular "once in a blue moon" that currently exists.

D. They could actively acknowledge petitions and agree to bring it up to the Dev's and HAVE THE TIME TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THIS. Both in actually contacting the Dev's; Getting a response and then finally posting a feedback back to the class. (As opposed to know where we're offered multiple "Post here!" Threads and then ignored.)

E. It'd let SOMEONE be held accountable when we're upset. When any class is upset. Yes, Tyren wasn't our class Rep. Yes he was just a general board CM but considering he DID post for Information and DID say he would get feedback which never showed he WAS the object of most of the anger expressed. Alternatively with a Class CM the players would know exactly who to rant on and who to ***** about to all their guildies when they log on for the evening.

F. It's not like Blizzard "Couldn't afford it" or would go bankrupt if they did it.

G. What reason other than "The current system isn't so bad" (Only if the views of the developer and your own CM's). EVERYONE complains about the lack of blue responses in their class forums. EVERY CLASS. It's an odd day where I don't hear someone on my server complaining about the lack of anyone on the Forums in one area or another. I'm not saying get rid of your jobs; Keep you guys to go around the forums as "General CMs" (Since the last thing we need is Less Blues..)just get us some CLASS SPECIFIC ones we can talk to; get angry at; and get info from! Is there any real reasons as to why not to do this?!

There are dozens upon dozens of reasons to hire people; one to each class forum. Yes they could play other classes; yes they could even do whatever they wanted; but at least there would be accountability; resonsibility and RESPONSES (FEEDBACK) on a more regular basis.

Other than that. I think the best way to quell all the anger and annoyance you've seen in the Rogue forums would be to actually address what is being brought up. Deleting 3000 posts isn't going to make anyone smile. Maybe if you'd gone in; addressed the persons complaints. Or even added a sticky saying you'd "attempt to get us some info". But deleting it outright? Way to wave the red flag at the rampaging bull so to speak.

Apologies for length;
-Sharur

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Q u o t e:
Tweaks... not nerfs. While your entire rogue community is shouting for help the developers are continuously hurting us. It's as though the more we yell the more they take away. Myself, and many others can understand some of our fixes being lower priority that others, but for a class that you, yourself, just admitted needs tweaks, why keep taking away? Our entire role in the game has been erased on the past few months. There isnt a class out there that cant do just as good of a job, if not better. Hell even druids can do just as much dps, AND heal themselves now. Fury warriors are rogs in plate, etc. etc.. For the third time now, I have to ask you why they keep taking away. You dodge the question every time its asked. If there are plans to fix us, fine. Even if its down the line its nice to know its coming. But dont tell us that we only need tweaks, which btw means you will become blizzards red headed step children, and lose your purpose in the game.

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Q u o t e:
Caydiem:

You've neglected every single one of my posts, as well as many others, in favor of responding to posts to get a clever zinger on someone who misinterpreted the word tweak, and posts of that nature. You keep hitting on little side issues instead of the big guns.

We have already repeatedly done what you're asking us to do in this thread to address our concerns, many times before you even ever told us to do it.

We can't get across to anyone in any forum. If we post in the General Forum it's deleted. If we do it here it's "supposedly" read and not replied to. I would like to know why, if you read these forums as you say you do, you haven't noticed the abundance of quality, informative and fact-based threads with our concerns, leading you to make a post like this for a band-aid fix. You come in here, and tell us to do something that we've been doing for a very long time without being told to, and then ignore us when we bring it up. I am not impressed, and I am not satisfied.

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[ post edited by Caydiem ]

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Q u o t e:
Sure, we all understand that accepting the responsibility for a one (or two) certain class(es) is tough, and which is why nobody wants to be labeled a representative. And sure, letting any CM post any feedback on any classes forums is a nice idea, but CMs just have to deal with the fact that certain CMs will be labeled a class rep for a certain class if that CM is the one who relays feedback and gives the most information to the public.

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Q u o t e:
Ehh I'm a combat Rogue myself. None to happy with this last patch although I still happily spam SS and warn my healers I'm a mana sink. I tried Backstabbing but I hated the position factor.

As for the agenda - yes I suppose so. I know previously there have been suggestions that your feminine status had something to do with Druids recieving their buffing.

Well if you kept the CM's and introduced the Class CM's then wouldn't they counter-act each other? The CM's would be general and if they do indeed manage to read most of the posts on every board would have a general idea of what any given class would like. The Class CM's would be incharge of giving the feedback and such.

I do see your point regarding charisma but I think if the two sets of CM's work against each other they'll be each other's check and balance.
Same with the more than one set of eyes; the class CM's would be added to the current system. They'd just add another set of eyes only focused on a specific place rather than leaping around.

As for the cost - As I said. Cost efficiency doesn't really matter when you have 1 million players (As announced by Blizzard) paying 20 bucks a month. 20 Million dollars and they can't afford to hire 9 or 18 geeks (Who'd absolutely love the job) for them?
For example Ming has spent more time than anyone else I've ever read doing endless tests and re-tests of everything regarding Rogues it seems. She's often more responsive and more knowledgable than a CM. If she were a class rep she'd do a fine job at actually knowing what was wrong with it since she can spend the hours testing it.

Anyways thanks for the reply.

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Q u o t e:
Well then I don't see the need to respond to every post stating emphatically that there are no class reps, period. To deal with the fact that people are going to keep labeling you something is to just accept it even though you know it's untrue.

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Q u o t e:
I'm not sure I have much to say, since my highest rogue is currently, lvl 19, but what I wonder is, why is there no feedback from well thought out posts? I understand you can't give feedback like "Blue was here."

But you also said that your job is to take constructive post from players and direct them to the Devs correct? That would mean that they generaly respond to you with feedback. Can't you post what they say? Of course, its understandable that some of the information given is not really "releasable," but wouldn't you be able to post at least some feedback? Of course I may be ignoring the whole point about you saying that the rogue class in general is well balanced and that only tweeking is necessary.

Anyways, its late and my thoughts aren't well articulated at this moment. I hope you understand my point and what i'm trying to get at. Rogues are by far, my favorite class to fight against with my druid. You guys(and gals) rock.

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Q u o t e:

You said that the Devs all play on their happy little servers free of care bears, gankers and morons. However, in reality there is care-bears, there is gankers and there is goibng to be un coperative players that will limit the Rogues usefullness in many situations. I would suggest that the Devs do roll on some open PvP realms simply to see the differance.

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