Poster: Irontygress at 2/22/2006 8:12:23 AM PST
Subject: Tseric: Aggro and "Razor Sharp Reasoning" |
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Q u o t e:
This is clearly stated in the class description on the website as one of the challenges of playing a mage. To convince the designers to give you aggro-wiping abilities would require the most undeniably heavy and razor sharp reason ever created for game design. You would have a better chance at getting more straight damage buffs, which they don't really feel convinced the class needs, either.
Understand, the damage potential (not even considering ZHC/ToEP) is greater than the majority of other classes, barring rogues. Mages out-damage everyone; it can be done. Convincing the designers that you need a damage boost is saying that you have no opportunities to acheive strong damage in general, which is simply not the case.
This was posted in response to:
Q u o t e:
and a way to reduce aggro
I realize that Mages most likely will not be getting a way to reduce aggro. However, there is one question I would and I think the Mage community in general would like answered. So here goes:
You quote the Mage class discription:
Q u o t e:
Managing monster hate
as the reason why we as Mages will never get any sort of aggro reducing spell. Fair enough.
However, I will quote the following in the Rogue class discription:
Q u o t e:
Managing monster hate/aggro so that tanks can take the majority of damage when possible
which would mean to me that Rogues should have no way of reducing aggro as well. As you stated, Mages and Rogues are the heaviest of the DPS classes. They have the same lines regarding threat in their class discription. So, why is it that Rogues get:
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=21184
Rogue Passive (DnD)
Classes: Rogue
Decreases threat generated by 20%
Effect 1: Apply Aura: Mod Threat -20%
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=11303
Feint (Rank 4)
Classes: Rogue (52)
Performs a feint, causing no damage but lowering your threat by a large amount, making the enemy less likely to attack you.
Effect 1: Threat: -600
http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=1857
Vanish (Rank 2)
Allows the rogue to vanish from sight, entering an improved stealth mode for 10 sec. Also breaks movement impairing effects. More effective than Vanish (Rank 1).
Effect 1: Trigger spell: Vanish (Enter Improved Stealth)
Effect 2: Trigger spell: Vanish Purge (Remove Roots/Snares)
Rogues have not 1, not 2, but three aggro reducing abilities. One that across the board reduces their threat by 20% as a passive ability of the rogue class. One that on activation dumps 600 threat from their current target. And one that removes them from combat, which by definition reduces their aggro to zero.
So, in conclusion, just to reiterate, how is okay for Rogues to get three aggro reducing abilities/passive while Mages cannot have even one when both classes have the exact same comment regarding threat management?
We're all living in Amerika,
Coca-cola, Wonderbra!
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=720872&p=#post720872 | | | Poster: Tseric at 3/6/2006 10:40:16 AM PST
Subject: Re: Tseric: Aggro and "Razor Sharp Reasoning |
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First, let's use some logic to get some parts out of the way and deal with specifics.
Managing monster hate
is not equal to
Managing monster hate/aggro so that tanks can take the majority of damage when possible
"so that tanks can take the majority of damage when possible" is the implicit description of aggro-dumping. The two statements are not the same.
Managing monster hate by itself implies limiting threat(damage) levels. Having another class/role take the majority of damage when possible implies shifting threat/aggro somewhere else.
Q u o t e:
Giving mages a tool to lower aggro isn't a damage buff except in BWL
Giving mages a tool to lower aggro is a damage buff in all cases, as it can be used as an ability, by a mage, in any situation. Aggro in a situation like BWL is specifically designed to accentuate the challenge of not drawing aggro for casters and managing their damage output. Giving a class an ability specifically to work around a dungeon encounter is contrary to designing the dungeon in that way in the first place.
Now, if we aren't talking about BWL specifically, then we are pretty much saying the class needs a damage buff in general. Whether it now makes the mage more fun to play is another matter. At the core it will be a damage buff.
It seems to me that many are citing an "all or nothing" scenario, where if they cannot crank out all the damage possible, then the potential of such a thing is worthless. Now, I will agree that restraining yourself may not be the most fun every player ever had and perhaps there is something to be done to change up the pace.
I could make a joke about how BWL makes wand spec. more appealing, but I don't think a lot of you would find that amusing at this point. So, I will merely chuckle to myself and take into consideration some of the good points and counter-points made in this thread.
Just admiring the shape of your skull...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=720872&p=#post750399 | Poster: Tseric at 3/6/2006 10:49:37 AM PST
Subject: Re: Tseric: Aggro and "Razor Sharp Reasoning |
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Q u o t e:
but if rogues can have feint to reduce thier threat why can't mages have something similar?
In simplest terms, because mages have range. It is an important benefit and distinction that is often trivialized.
Not to say nothing like this will ever happen, just stating the current philosophy.
Just admiring the shape of your skull...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=720872&p=#post750423 | Poster: Tseric at 3/6/2006 1:24:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Tseric: Aggro and "Razor Sharp Reasoning |
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Q u o t e:
Tseric's style is to hit the beehive with a stick. He riles up a lot of response with a few carefully placed, lengthy missives, and takes all the feedback in note form.
Or so I suspect.
Something to that effect, yes. It has yielded interesting results in the past. In this case, however, it seems some people are more concerned with listing the reasons in how I am unqualified to do my job.
The best question I have seen in the resulting responses is probably this one:
Q u o t e:
Why, from a game balance point of view, does a ranged class with significantly more survivability than us and comparable ranged DPS have a complete aggro wipe on a 30-second cooldown?
It is a good question and I won't say I have a definitive answer. However, I'll throw this out to think about.
Aggro-wiping works as an indirect buff for DPS in that, if you can unload a lot of damage, gain and then wipe aggro, you are then in a position to rinse and repeat.
Hunter's have comparable DPS due, in part, to the utilization of aggro-dumping. Comparable DPS is something that is desired for the sake of hybridization. Breaking up the "strict role" of DPS allows several classes to fill a particular role.
Now, should mages be given an aggro-shedding ability, this then pushes their damage potential up further and reduces the comparisons in DPS gained earlier.
Now, it is quite possible with the subsequent revision of other classes, that now the time is ripe for something like this. However, I would simply like to have a better reason than "because hunters/rogues get one, why can't we?"
In all honesty, the best reason I see is that limiting interaction through withholding damage is just not much fun. Fun is somehow more compelling than just wanting what another class has because they match in certain details. Fun and the gradual build-up of class balance are the compelling reasons for me right now. How about you?
Just admiring the shape of your skull...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=720872&p=#post750840 | Poster: Tseric at 3/6/2006 2:14:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Tseric: Aggro and "Razor Sharp Reasoning |
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Q u o t e:
Anywho, keep bashing the beehive Tseric. As much as we sting I think most of us enjoy it. ;) :P
If anything, this thread has provided strong reason for ME to get an aggro-wipe ability. AMIRITE?
Just admiring the shape of your skull...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=720872&p=#post750975 | Poster: Tseric at 3/6/2006 8:29:27 PM PST
Subject: Re: Tseric: Aggro and "Razor Sharp Reasoning |
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Q u o t e:
Well, here's the thing. Aggro dumping abilities directly up a hunter/rogue's dps in that they are less mana dependant than, say, a mage.
In many situations, I don't have a problem running myself out of mana over the duration of a fight of a reasonable length. Aggro dumping abilities will rarely net me a higher total damage on boss fights. It will be more of an asset on shorter duration fights. Ie, trash mobs.
This is the argument that I would present for an aggro dumping ability for mages:
For a mage, an aggro dumping ability would be primarily a learning tool and a way to fix their mistakes first. Like, not properly managing their mana and dumping too much damage too fast. Not greatly increasing their overall damage, mind you, (save for the fact that they might not die) but allowing them to bring themselves back down to where they should be if they were properly managing their damage.
Once a fight is learned, durring many situations, I feel no need for any sort of aggro reduction/wiping tools. I know what I can do and when I can do it to run myself out of mana by the end of the fight maximising my damage potential. Aggro managment tools would not help me do that for many fights.
Imo, for the most part, it would be a learning tool. Not a core ability in our raiding arsonal to maximise our damage potential as feign/feint is for hunters and rogues.
Personally, I don't have any strong opinions on obtaining such an ability. It doesn't matter much to me. But, if I was to argue for it, that is the argument I would make.
This post gave me shivers. Duly noted.
Just admiring the shape of your skull...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=720872&p=#post751751 |
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