Poster: Tseric at 11/10/2005 11:11:08 PM PST
Subject: Resists + Survivability |
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I have seen this reposted many, many times, so I would like to address points where I can, with what information I have available. Credit goes to Azrayne as the OP.
Q u o t e:
Tseric, as a long time mage player, I appreciate the attention you've been givng our class forum over the last few days. However, you're making the same mistake Blizzard have been making with the mage class for months now, that is you're looking past what's causing the problem entirely at something that isn't there.
At the moment, there are I think 2 main issue's all mages will agree are the major problems with our class, resist gear, and surviveability:
If you respond to this thread, please keep it relegated to discussing resistance or survivability.
Q u o t e:
Fire resist: This is the issue you've been speaking about the most lately. You've made a lot of arguments as to how it isn't a huge issue for our class (and a fyi, it is a far worse problem for mages than it is warlocks. Warlocks as I'm sure you're aware, have the ability to debuff their target for 75 resist to their chosen damage type, effectively negating the issue).
The devs regard it as an issue and something they want to correct. What I merely said is that it isn't a game/class breaking issue. The debuff for Warlocks is indeed something that can minimize this effect for that class, however for the sake of argument, let's not make comparisons to what other classes do or do not have and stick to how these things affect mages.
Q u o t e:
Your main arguments on the FR issue, to my observation, have been:
1) Those who stack fire resists make large sacrifices in other stats in PvP, leaving them vulnerable to a quick death and unable to perform their role as well.
2) Fire resist at this point is common simply due to the fact that the current endgame instances are fire based. As the game shifts away from these instances the problem will fade significantly.
However, you're incredibly wrong on both points:
1) What you fail to realise is that the problem, for mages, is not the people who stack 300 FR in PvP. I agree with you on them, I'm quite content to be useless against these people, I'll switch to the next target and let my group deal with them. They 'do' make large sacrifices, and if they're willing to make those sacrifices to be unkillable by one spec of one class, then they're welcome to open themselves up to getting destroyed by the rest of my group.
However, it is not these people who are the issue. The issue is the way in which FR is distributed across items, and the method in which resists are calculated.
Look at any classes MC set, you'll find a small amount of resists on various pieces. Might and Nightslayer, for example, have 34 FR. Arcanist has 41. Prophecy has 34. And so forth.
Then there's items like Cloak of Shrouded Mists, Core Forged Greaves, Crimson Shocker, Crown of Destruction, Dragon Blood Cape, Finkle's Lava Dredger, and so forth.
These are all decent gear, with nice stats for PvE or PvP. The FR on these for most people is an afterthought, and not something they're really considering, yet it still adds up. By the time a person is decked out in MC loot, they'll have 50, 60, 70 Fire Resist. Not with Librams, not with Enchants, not with Flarecore or Dark Iron gear. Just using normal everyday multipurpose epic loot.
Now 50 - 100 FR, on the low end of this scale. Doesn't sound like much compared to the big bad warrior running around in 300 FR gear does it? Except consider that this person also has his stats maximised for their classes role. They don't sacrifice DPS for this FR, or HP, or AC, or Crit. It's just there as a bonus on top of their other stats.
Mostly agreed. I have acknowledged the fact that FR, in particular, has been distributed liberally on some gear. The devs want to review this and reduce the quanity of FR. Some gear shouldn't have it, some should have less.
Q u o t e:
So we've got a character decked out in epics, fine tuned for performance in their chosen role, and on top of this boasting some FR. But lets see just how far 50 or 100 FR goes.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/resistances.html
Resistance Against Level 50 Direct Damage Spells
Resist Score: 50
Chance to fully resist: 0%
Chance to Resist 100%: 0%
Chance to Resist 75%: 2%
Chance to Resist 50%: 11%
Chance to Resist 25%: 33%
Chance to take full damage: 54%
Resist Score: 100
Chance to fully resist: 1%
Chance to Resist 100%: 1%
Chance to Resist 75%: 6%
Chance to Resist 50%: 124%
Chance to Resist 25%: 49%
Chance to take full damage: 20%
THIS, is the problem. With 100 FR, this character has 20% chance to take over 75% of my spells damage. Due to the random nature of this system, all it takes is a string of slightly bad luck, and you'll find you get massive mitigation. I've had a warrior with 44 FR gear do the following:
25% Resist
50% Resist
25% Resist
50% Resist
75% Resist
25% Resist
That's almost 50% damage mitigation. From 44 FR. This warrior sure as hell wasn't sacrificing any stats for that.
So there you have it. The problem is not stacking FR, it never was. It's the small bits of FR that add up as a consequance of wearing epics, and the fact that with a little luck a small bit of FR can mitigate massive amounts of damage.
Using a single instance to demonstrate a flaw in percentages or statistics is not a fair assessment. I'm not disputing the fact that this occurred, rather the frequency with which it happens and how that is interpreted. Yes, the possibility is there, with "luck". That is simply going to be the nature of randomly generated numbers. Furthermore, single incidents like the one you cited will stick out in your mind, as bad luck lingers in the mind more than good. However, the devs are also concerned with potential damage mitigation, as you have described, and are creating methods to compensate. I would like to go more into depth, but at this time must hold my tongue. I will be able to explain more in the near future. BlizzCon attendees may know what I am referring to.[ post edited by Tseric ]
It's so hard to win, when there's so much to lose.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=502900&p=#post502900 | | | Poster: Tseric at 11/10/2005 11:11:17 PM PST
Subject: Resists + Survivability |
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Q u o t e:
Consider how easy it is to get MC loot. MC is on farm mode for pretty much any guild that's been raiding for more than a month. I'd say people in full epics are starting to outnumber those in full blues nowdays. And all of them have that tiny bit of FR required to destroy our burst damage.
MC is still a central focus for raid groups, especially as it moves into "farm status". On any given night, there are more MC instances than any other. The focus is here and therefore on fire resistance. This focus will shift and broaden over time as more additions are made to end-game raid content. Zul'Gurub is a beginning to this broadening. Ahn'Qiraj will be another addition which will draw attention away from the "farm status" instances.
Q u o t e:
We're mages. We rely on burst damage. Thats what we rolled this class for. Thats what we chose, over huge HP or pets or armour or stealth or heals. Yet all it takes is that tiny bit of FR to totally screw us up. If our burst damage fails to win us the fight, we're dead more often than not. Our surviveability is a joke (see below for more on this), is we don't drop our enemy within the first few seconds of the fight, we're the ones who're going to be making to trip to the graveyard.
As for the focus shifting away from fire instances being the solution, it isn't. As items increase in power, what we're going to see is more and more of these little insignificant bonuses on them. You think people are just going to suddenly be at 0 FR once we start raiding Emerald Dream? No, it's going to keep adding up in small ways, slowly. And the problem will get worse.
You are assuming that these little insignificant bonuses are going to be centralized around resistances, and fire at that. I have said that the devs are currently interested in lowering the distribution of fire resist on items and you are saying they will increase them. Yes, resists as a whole may crop up, but there are several schools to deal with, so focusing on one type will result in less of another. As a current example, the enchants for all resists are low, but to stack all resists evenly is not what the devs are looking for in future itemization.
Q u o t e:
Ice mages have it even harder, or will soon. Due to their spells all being binary, they don't get partial resists. That warrior fight I mentioned earlier: had he had 44 frost resist, and I been a frost mage, it would have looked like this:
RESIST
RESIST
RESIST
RESIST
RESIST
RESIST
Frost mages aren't going to be getting 40% mitigation from that minute amount of resist gear, they'll be getting 100%, or 80%, 90%, if they're lucky to get a spell in. You think they're going to be able to compete with that?
You're quite right, frost is affected more severely than any other type of spell school. The nature of binary spells is considered an issue and is being looked into. Given that this would likely require a fundamental mechanical change, it would probably take some time to review and revamp. I do not have anything more concrete, save for the fact that the devs don't like this damage mitigation, either.
Q u o t e:
The solution is simple. Many mages have argued for the removal of resists from PvP, but if you read my points on itemization below, you'll see why I believe this isn't an option.
Instead, resists need to be made static, in the same way damage is. My +50 fire damage doesn't somehow give me the ability to have a chance of doing an extra 50% damage, resistsshouldn't work like that either, at least not for PvP. The system works fine for PvE, but it's broken otherwise.
So, my suggestion, is to turn resists into a static damage reduction. 50 FR = -20% Fire Damage, or so forth. The actual mitigation doesn't have to be decreased significantly, if at all, simply make it so players can't get lucky and have massive mitigation from tiny amounts of resists.
I am going to make an assumption for ease of illustration. The given will be 50 FR = -20% Dmg, therefore 100 FR = -40% Dmg. Along this progression, we quickly move to 250 FR = -100% Dmg. With a static damage reduction, you have the potential to mitigate any/all damage consistently and reliably. While you may regard the current system as flawed, even with 300 FR there is a chance for some damage to be taken. Under your proposed system, large damage mitigation would happen more regularly in greater, not lesser quantity. In addition to this you would be providing a calculated and repeatable mechanic, which players could easily factor into their gear in an attempt to mitigate 100% of the damage 100% of the time. Even if the numbers were adjusted to disallow the potential of 100% resists, you are still seeing repeatable mitigation which players can count on. With the current system you can only hope for massive damage mitigation, not rely on it.
Q u o t e:
You, Blizzard, are making a similar change to warlocks CoTE and CoS because you believe large spikes of damage bonuses from negative resists is a bad idea. Well it goes both ways. Neither should it be possible to mitigate huge chunks of damage. it's exactly the same thing, and both are equally bad.
Change resists to a static reduction, as you're doing to warlocks resist debuffs, not only would this solve the problem of us having large chunks of burst damage absorbed, crippling us, but it also would allow you to solve the problem of binary spells once and for all.
I don't agree that they are the same thing, but I do agree that nobody is keen on either. Once again, with random numbers in the current system, the possibility for damage mitigation may occur, but we wish to decrease it's frequency and quantity from it's current state.[ post edited by Tseric ]
It's so hard to win, when there's so much to lose.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=502900&p=#post502901 | Poster: Tseric at 11/10/2005 11:11:24 PM PST
Subject: Resists + Survivability |
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Q u o t e:
The second issue of surviveability is a much easier one to address. Our surviveability doesn't scale, at all. Look at this comparison:
Mage:
Stam = HP (Surviveability)
Resists = Spell mitigation (surviveability)
AC = Melee Mitigation (surviveability)
Intellect = Tiny amount of crit (100 Int = 1% crit)) (DPS)
= Mana, sustained damage
+Damage = Damage (DPS)
+crit = crit (DPS)
Now compare this to a warrior (and forgive me if I get the numbers wrong, I don't play the class)
Stamina = HP (Surviveability)
Resists = Spell Mitigation (Surviveability)
AC = Melee Mitigation (Surviveability)
Strength = Attack Power (DPS)
Agility = Crit% (40 agil = 1% crit?) (DPS)
+AP = Attack Power (DPS)
+Crit% = Crit (DPS)
Weapon DPS = Damage (DPS)
I am not exactly sure of the numbers, either, but generally this is an accurate assessment.
Q u o t e:
Of the mages upgrades, the following receive almost nothing in terms of upgrades once you're in UBRS blues. Even if you're decked out in the best of the best of BWL/MC loot, they'll be almost the same:
HP: Might go from 3.3k to 3.8k, or around that, but at the most you'll gain maybe 500HP.
HP gained from stamina is not the main bonus in stat increase for a mage, MP gain from Intellect is, but I'm sure you know that. It's simply not supposed to scale similarly to other classes.
Q u o t e:
Resists: you'll have nothing at UBRS level, 50 or so maybe at MC level, then maybe have that go up by 10 or 15 from BWL.
While it is possible to get resist bonuses at UBRS level, I can agree with the gist of this statement.
Q u o t e:
AC: Does not upgrade. At all. Ever. = 0 melee mitigation upgrades.
What exactly do you mean by this? The shift from Magister to Arcanist has an increase of over 100 points in armor. Granted, that doesn't amount to huge melee damage mitigation, but there is an increase.
Q u o t e:
Of the upgrades listed earlier, the following are melee upgrade methods that have no equivelant for casters.
Strength = Attack Power (DPS)
Weapon DPS = Damage (DPS)
And the following scale at less than 50% of the rate melee do:
Agility = Crit% (40 agil = 1% crit?) (DPS)
Compared to:
Intellect = Tiny amount of crit (100 Int = 1% crit)) (DPS)
First, are we talking about survivability or DPS? I understand that DPS is going to have an effect on how fast a player dies, but why bring up survivability scaling and then make a comparison of DPS? Your approach is not clear here.
Second, I would like to make a distinction with this. Agility only increases DPS for ranged attacks, Strength for melee. We can discuss one or the other, but lumping both in with a comparison to the DPS effects with Intellect is not accurate. This gives the impression that both of these stats are contributing to the same source of DPS, when they are not. So, going back to your example of the warrior, we should make the comparison of Str=DPS, Weapon=DPS, and AGI=Crit%, while INT=Crit% and indirectly affects DPS by mana pool size, Spell rank=DPS and +Dmg Gear=DPS. Overall, I think the comparison you made is selective and not a fair representation. Conversely, it could be said that mages have methods of upgrades that are not equivalent to melee classes. It's a bit of an apples and oranges scenario. However, this seems to be a digression. Let's continue…
Q u o t e:
There, that is the issue. As a mage, we have 2 choices with our gear once we start upgrading in raids:
Intellect Loot
+Damage/+Crit%
To refer to loot with a primary stat as you did, oversimplifies additional stats which may be on the item, but ok "Intellect loot" it is. +Dmg/+Crit%, sure, won't argue there. I will take your point as these are the 2 elements to be regarded first when gearing up/upgrading.
Q u o t e:
Our stamina does not upgrade at all. We have no option of equipping a new piece of loot and having an instant 150 HP and decent AP upgrade. Intellect is pretty much useless, as consumeables can make up the difference for anything as low as a 5.5k - 6k mana pool. So of course mages will go with the +damage route.
I will grant you that the Arcanist to Netherwind shift does not see an increase in STA. With INT being the primary mage stat, this may be intended, but I can inquire about this specifically. To claim that Intellect is useless is an over simplification. I think you make this claim because INT does not directly influence damage, nor does it affect survivability directly. If you use consumables to increase INT and opt for +dmg gear, instead, that is an intended trade-off. Also, this is not considering that survivability for a mage is based in escape spells and CC, which depends on a mana pool.
Q u o t e:
Compare the methods melee have of scaling their character, and compare it to mages. Casters are falling behind dangerously fast, simply because we don't get nearly as much out of our gear as melee do, and all of that gear is incredibly poorly designed.
The devs have taken class and item information and made comparisons of scaling with current itemization and near-future itemization. From this data there are a couple things which become visible:
-From 1-59, Melee classes do in fact scale damage faster than casters
-At 60+ (basically meaning from your first dungeon set to tier 2) damage scales relatively evenly between classes
Now, to be sure, there are inconsistencies in the scaling which we aim to even out. This will occur with continued itemization for casters, to bring it in comparison with the previous saturation of melee items. So, to say they are falling behind dangerously fast is not an accurate assessment. There are points at which they may fall behind and we aim to fill those gaps. As to "incredibly poor design"…I won't really comment on that subjective evaluation, save to say that we are continuing to improve itemization.[ post edited by Tseric ]
It's so hard to win, when there's so much to lose.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=502900&p=#post502903 | Poster: Tseric at 11/10/2005 11:11:31 PM PST
Subject: Resists + Survivability |
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Q u o t e:
The solution:
Allow the AC on caster gear to increase as we go up in tiers of loot as melee gear does.
The AC on caster gear does increase with a tier increase. To say it should do so as melee gear does is missing the point of survivability for a mage. Again, it is not about taking hits, but avoiding them.
Q u o t e:
Increase the amount of stamina on highend gear, and make it upgrade noticeably as we go up tiers of loot.
As I said before, I can inquire about this directly to determine intention.
Q u o t e:
Increase the amount of power our stats give us. Let us gain raw spell damage from Int, and give us a higher crit rate increase from it.
It has been stated before that these stats are intended to function differently. This is why +dmg gear is used, to provide a separate mechanic for damage improvement. Each stat has a main function and a secondary function and these take different effect with each class. Copy/pasting functionality from one stat to another is not something the devs are considering.
Q u o t e:
Give us an equivelant to a 'weapon' slot. Maybe make our staves count as this. Remove the majority of the +damage from the rest of our gear and stack it onto our staves as the equivelant to a weapons damage. We need to have one slot we can upgrade that will increase our power to the same degree a melee can by going from Heartseeker to Perditions.
So, instead of damage bonuses spread over multiple items, you want to put all your eggs in one basket? Here's a potential scenario:
Warrior 1-"Hey, wanna know how to gimp a mage in battlegrounds?"
Warrior 2-"Sure, how?"
Warrior 1-"Disarm them"
The mage is not a weapon class. We will not likely put such a large focus on an aspect of the class in which it is not a main focus. So far, you have asked for more armor, for stats to operate like a melee class, more hit points and to focus power on a weapon slot. If I didn't know any better, I would say you are asking to be turned into a warrior, keeping ranged damage.
Aside from that, there would be a distinction between using a staff and using a blade/off-hand combo. You are suggesting we revamp our entire item, weapon and armor scheme around your suggestion. As much as I appreciate your feedback and want to discuss options, telling the people who made this game to effectively scrap and totally redo a large aspect of the game based on your perception is not going to cut it.
Q u o t e:
HP = HP
AC = AC
Resist = Resist
Str/Agil = Int
Weapon DPS = Staff Damage
+Attack Power = +damage on other slots
+Crit% = +Crit%
You see, by this, we scale equally. We need to scale at the same rate, or balance is lost. If a warrior gets a 50% damage upgrade and 30% surviveability upgrade by going from UBRS to MC, so should we. If a warrior can upgrade his DPS by 15% or 20% by picking up a new weapon, we should do the same by picking up a new staff. Stacking large amounts of +damage onto our gear is not the answer, and the problem will exist until Blizzard realise this.
I have already said how scaling plays out and how we plan to adjust it. There is no real proof here that demonstrates how mages would scale the same as warriors with this in place. Once again, you are making the comparison that "because a weapon class gets a good upgrade by getting a better weapon, we should do the same". Why, exactly? A Warrior is nothing without their weapon. The same can not be said for casters. Why exactly would you want to share the same boat with them?
Q u o t e:
Well, my post is considerably longer than I intended it to be. Hopefully you'll respond, or at the least read it and perhaps consider some of what I've had to say. This is, after 11 months of playing the mage class, my summary of our issue's. Where you to fix all of these and give us a slight talent revamp, I'd consider our class as being up there with hunters in terms of balance and completeness. But until some of these changes are considered by the Dev's, we'll just be left in the dust as other classes pull miles ahead of us in advancement, then turn around and kick our faces in with it as soon as we try to PvP.[/quote]
I know you guys are trying to solve these issue's slowly, but it's simply not possible. The problems with the mage class are problems that come from the basic core of the games mechanics, and until you address those and change them as neccessary, the mage class will continually fall behind, crippling our performance in every aspect of the game.
Yours Sincerily,
Azrayne ~ Ex-Mage of Stormreaver and Blackrock.
In regards to the basic inconsistencies you are aiming for, I see what it's about, as do the devs. We are going to have things to reveal fairly soon that are going to bridge gaps that many mages are seeing. And by fairly soon, I mean I will be talking about specifics in the coming weeks, not months. However, just to be clear, itemization isn't one of them. I talk about how it is ongoing and filling in gaps, but at no point will I clearly delineate the different items being added. Itemization doesn't go into the patch notes, it just goes into the patch.
However, I have to wonder about one thing:
Q u o t e:
I know you guys are trying to solve these issue's slowly, but it's simply not possible
I really don't know what you are trying to say with this comment. What do you mean not possible? The development cycle is going to turn as it does. There really isn't anything that is going to speed it up. I've already touched on how some core mechanics are involved, but that is not the whole story. We have a lot of work we are putting into this game and we will get there when we get there. Not a moment sooner.[ post edited by Tseric ]
It's so hard to win, when there's so much to lose.
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