Poster: Wyrmrydr at 10/21/2005 7:58:12 PM PDT
Subject: In Response to Tseric |
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This is not to meant to be a trolling or flame thread, so if that is your intention, take your comments elswhere.
Tseric I hope you read this. I am writing this thread mainly in response to your post where you blasted alot of mage forum posters for their elitist attitude. While I agree with you that comments like "noobs level to 60 before you post" are elitist and generally rude, I have to say that many of the issues that mages, and cloth casters in general, percieve as balance problems, don't appear until a character has been level 60 for a while. In UBRS gear, I think that PvP and PvE are balanced and fun. At that level, the best weapons that melee classes are likely to have are a blackhand doomsaw, a bonsc#@!&r, a barman shanker, a skullforge reaver, etc. All of these are actually fairly difficult to aquire and will require multiple raids and winning rolls against several other players.
On the other hand, long time level 60 players have weapons like arcanite reaper, unstoppable force, obsidian edged blade, perdition's blade, core hound tooth, etc. In addition, some of these weapons simply require winning a few alterac valley matches, or buying some materials. When I get ambush + backstabbed with a barman shanker, I'm hurt but I'm still allive. When I get ambush + backstabbed with perdition's blade I'm usually dead. In UBRS gear, warriors and rogues burst for about 2k damage, maybe a little more maybe a littl less. In epic gear, they burst for more than 3k damage on a regular basis. In UBRS gear, warriors usually have about 5k HP, while rogues and hunters have 4k or sometimes less. Now, however, I find rogues and hunters in epic PvE gear or, even worse, PvP reward gear with in excess of 5k hp. Warriors often have over 6k hp. Doing 2-3k burst damage is not a problem for me. Doing 5k or more burst damage is nearly impossible. Simply put, it's very difficult for me to kill players with more than 5k hit points before they kill me.
PvP at the UBRS level is also more balanced for mages and cloth casters. My crowd control, snares, and escapes work in UBRS. If I pull aggro, I can sheep the mob or use frost nova to root it. Even if I get hit, I can survive a few hits especially with heals. In MC, none of my snares or crowd control work. In addition, pulling aggro almost always results in instant death, and not only that, pulling aggro often results in wiping the entire raid. In MC or BWL the fact that mages have no aggro control abilities is maginified because pulling aggro endangers the entire party. In BWL especially, alot of mobs have negative resistances and massive crits and damage spikes are common, except they are usually a bad thing, not a good thing.
At level 59, players haven't seen the inside of MC yet. At level 59, you don't have to PvP against entire teams where everyone is rank 11 or higher. So basically, in UBRS gear, I had more or less the same opinion, namely "what are you talking about, mages are balanced." Now however, after hundreds of hours at level 60, I am in MC every week and I PvP against a team that includes a high warlord, every day. Needless to say, my opinion about "balance" has changed.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=461758&p=#post461758 | | | Poster: Tseric at 10/21/2005 10:42:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: In Response to Tseric |
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Q u o t e:
This is not to meant to be a trolling or flame thread, so if that is your intention, take your comments elswhere.
Tseric I hope you read this. I am writing this thread mainly in response to your post where you blasted alot of mage forum posters for their elitist attitude. While I agree with you that comments like "noobs level to 60 before you post" are elitist and generally rude, I have to say that many of the issues that mages, and cloth casters in general, percieve as balance problems, don't appear until a character has been level 60 for a while. In UBRS gear, I think that PvP and PvE are balanced and fun. At that level, the best weapons that melee classes are likely to have are a blackhand doomsaw, a bonsc#@!&r, a barman shanker, a skullforge reaver, etc. All of these are actually fairly difficult to aquire and will require multiple raids and winning rolls against several other players.
On the other hand, long time level 60 players have weapons like arcanite reaper, unstoppable force, obsidian edged blade, perdition's blade, core hound tooth, etc. In addition, some of these weapons simply require winning a few alterac valley matches, or buying some materials. When I get ambush + backstabbed with a barman shanker, I'm hurt but I'm still allive. When I get ambush + backstabbed with perdition's blade I'm usually dead. In UBRS gear, warriors and rogues burst for about 2k damage, maybe a little more maybe a littl less. In epic gear, they burst for more than 3k damage on a regular basis. In UBRS gear, warriors usually have about 5k HP, while rogues and hunters have 4k or sometimes less. Now, however, I find rogues and hunters in epic PvE gear or, even worse, PvP reward gear with in excess of 5k hp. Warriors often have over 6k hp. Doing 2-3k burst damage is not a problem for me. Doing 5k or more burst damage is nearly impossible. Simply put, it's very difficult for me to kill players with more than 5k hit points before they kill me.
PvP at the UBRS level is also more balanced for mages and cloth casters. My crowd control, snares, and escapes work in UBRS. If I pull aggro, I can sheep the mob or use frost nova to root it. Even if I get hit, I can survive a few hits especially with heals. In MC, none of my snares or crowd control work. In addition, pulling aggro almost always results in instant death, and not only that, pulling aggro often results in wiping the entire raid. In MC or BWL the fact that mages have no aggro control abilities is maginified because pulling aggro endangers the entire party. In BWL especially, alot of mobs have negative resistances and massive crits and damage spikes are common, except they are usually a bad thing, not a good thing.
At level 59, players haven't seen the inside of MC yet. At level 59, you don't have to PvP against entire teams where everyone is rank 11 or higher. So basically, in UBRS gear, I had more or less the same opinion, namely "what are you talking about, mages are balanced." Now however, after hundreds of hours at level 60, I am in MC every week and I PvP against a team that includes a high warlord, every day. Needless to say, my opinion about "balance" has changed.
This is a well thought out and worded post. The point you make is pretty clear and not something that I ever disputed, despite claims to the contrary. I realize this is an issue with how gear can affect class balance and performance.
The current topic of fire-resist gear (and gear in general) is something we are aware of. However, with that is a sense of scale. To be sure, this issue affects most dramatically, Fire spec'ed mages in a PvP environment against opponents who have a high resistance to fire (gained through itemization). Now, this main issue does have ripple effects and as mages have most of their damage spells from the school of fire, many spells are affected.
However, it is from the correlation of an abundance of fire-resist gear and the mages primary damage from fire that we see people jumping to conclusions. As you say, you have a better understanding of what the issue is as a late-60 in PvP and as I've said, I don't dispute that there is an imbalance here. However, in attempting to gather feedback on this matter, I have seen a lot of comments that are simply overboard. Many mages are throwing in the towel or rerolling over this matter (or so they claim). And in my honest opinion, I think that's overreacting.
To reiterate, this issue primarily affects late-60 fire'speced mages in a PvP environment against opponents who have a high fire resist rate gained through itemization.
There are a lot of conditions that have to be met in such a situation. These conditions are not met by the majority of mages, the majority of PvPers or the majority at all. This is why we do not regard this issue as game-breaking, class-breaking, or any other such breaking. What this situation is, is a potential imbalance in PvP for a particular spec of a class. If you were to say it was a class-breaking issue, then you would have to dispute the effectiveness of a frost-spec'ed mage in a PvP environment. If anyone did that, then I would have to tell the devs that the players would like to dispute the effectiveness of a frost mage in PvP and then they would tear me a new one.
The argument that melee classes have a way to mitigate melee damage and caster damage and the casters do not, is not an entirely fair one. In stacking up fire-resist gear it is at the loss of other benefits. To say that casters should have ways to negate melee damage other than armor or dodge neglects the fact that casters are ranged. To give casters an arbitrary method of mitigating melee damage counters the single method of damage dealing for a melee class. If you disable or nullify a melee class' weapon, they are really, truly useless. Something like that would be seriously imbalancing the game. This is why disarm has a fairly short duration.
From what you are saying regarding your PvP experience now, you play familiar people and have been doing so for a while. They have experience, you have experience. Would this not incline them to knowledge of your playstyle and methods by which to counter it? I merely ask, because it is not my perception that people stock up on FR gear for battlegrounds. Many players prefer not to sacrifice other stats to counter a single school of magic.
So, in closing, I do understand your concerns and things are underway to adjust these imbalances. However, we are dealing with specific circumstances and conditions, not with a class-breaking issue that I feel everyone is making it out to be. I have seen people like yourself posting calmly and giving direct impressions of a situation. I have also seen players post who meet all of the conditions stated above and say that they do not have a real issue with the matter. It seems these people are ignored for not being sensationalist enough. However, reasoned and calm responses are the ones I respond to best. Thanks for yours.
Your Lucky Numbers: 4 8 15 16 23 42
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=461758&p=#post461982 | Poster: Tseric at 10/21/2005 10:42:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: In Response to Tseric *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
This is not to meant to be a trolling or flame thread, so if that is your intention, take your comments elswhere.
Tseric I hope you read this. I am writing this thread mainly in response to your post where you blasted alot of mage forum posters for their elitist attitude. While I agree with you that comments like "noobs level to 60 before you post" are elitist and generally rude, I have to say that many of the issues that mages, and cloth casters in general, percieve as balance problems, don't appear until a character has been level 60 for a while. In UBRS gear, I think that PvP and PvE are balanced and fun. At that level, the best weapons that melee classes are likely to have are a blackhand doomsaw, a bonsc#@!&r, a barman shanker, a skullforge reaver, etc. All of these are actually fairly difficult to aquire and will require multiple raids and winning rolls against several other players.
On the other hand, long time level 60 players have weapons like arcanite reaper, unstoppable force, obsidian edged blade, perdition's blade, core hound tooth, etc. In addition, some of these weapons simply require winning a few alterac valley matches, or buying some materials. When I get ambush + backstabbed with a barman shanker, I'm hurt but I'm still allive. When I get ambush + backstabbed with perdition's blade I'm usually dead. In UBRS gear, warriors and rogues burst for about 2k damage, maybe a little more maybe a littl less. In epic gear, they burst for more than 3k damage on a regular basis. In UBRS gear, warriors usually have about 5k HP, while rogues and hunters have 4k or sometimes less. Now, however, I find rogues and hunters in epic PvE gear or, even worse, PvP reward gear with in excess of 5k hp. Warriors often have over 6k hp. Doing 2-3k burst damage is not a problem for me. Doing 5k or more burst damage is nearly impossible. Simply put, it's very difficult for me to kill players with more than 5k hit points before they kill me.
PvP at the UBRS level is also more balanced for mages and cloth casters. My crowd control, snares, and escapes work in UBRS. If I pull aggro, I can sheep the mob or use frost nova to root it. Even if I get hit, I can survive a few hits especially with heals. In MC, none of my snares or crowd control work. In addition, pulling aggro almost always results in instant death, and not only that, pulling aggro often results in wiping the entire raid. In MC or BWL the fact that mages have no aggro control abilities is maginified because pulling aggro endangers the entire party. In BWL especially, alot of mobs have negative resistances and massive crits and damage spikes are common, except they are usually a bad thing, not a good thing.
At level 59, players haven't seen the inside of MC yet. At level 59, you don't have to PvP against entire teams where everyone is rank 11 or higher. So basically, in UBRS gear, I had more or less the same opinion, namely "what are you talking about, mages are balanced." Now however, after hundreds of hours at level 60, I am in MC every week and I PvP against a team that includes a high warlord, every day. Needless to say, my opinion about "balance" has changed.
This is a well thought out and worded post. The point you make is pretty clear and not something that I ever disputed, despite claims to the contrary. I realize this is an issue with how gear can affect class balance and performance.
The current topic of fire-resist gear (and gear in general) is something we are aware of. However, with that is a sense of scale. To be sure, this issue affects most dramatically, Fire spec'ed mages in a PvP environment against opponents who have a high resistance to fire (gained through itemization). Now, this main issue does have ripple effects and as mages have most of their damage spells from the school of fire, many spells are affected.
However, it is from the correlation of an abundance of fire-resist gear and the mages primary damage from fire that we see people jumping to conclusions. As you say, you have a better understanding of what the issue is as a late-60 in PvP and as I've said, I don't dispute that there is an imbalance here. However, in attempting to gather feedback on this matter, I have seen a lot of comments that are simply overboard. Many mages are throwing in the towel or rerolling over this matter (or so they claim). And in my honest opinion, I think that's overreacting.
To reiterate, this issue primarily affects late-60 fire'speced mages in a PvP environment against opponents who have a high fire resist rate gained through itemization.
There are a lot of conditions that have to be met in such a situation. These conditions are not met by the majority of mages, the majority of PvPers or the majority at all. This is why we do not regard this issue as game-breaking, class-breaking, or any other such breaking. What this situation is, is a potential imbalance in PvP for a particular spec of a class. If you were to say it was a class-breaking issue, then you would have to dispute the effectiveness of a frost-spec'ed mage in a PvP environment. If anyone did that, then I would have to tell the devs that the players would like to dispute the effectiveness of a frost mage in PvP and then they would tear me a new one.
The argument that melee classes have a way to mitigate melee damage and caster damage and the casters do not, is not an entirely fair one. In stacking up fire-resist gear it is at the loss of other benefits. To say that casters should have ways to negate melee damage other than armor or dodge neglects the fact that casters are ranged. To give casters an arbitrary method of mitigating melee damage counters the single method of damage dealing for a melee class. If you disable or nullify a melee class' weapon, they are really, truly useless. Something like that would be seriously imbalancing the game. This is why disarm has a fairly short duration.
From what you are saying regarding your PvP experience now, you play familiar people and have been doing so for a while. They have experience, you have experience. Would this not incline them to knowledge of your playstyle and methods by which to counter it? I merely ask, because it is not my perception that people stock up on FR gear for battlegrounds. Many players prefer not to sacrifice other stats to counter a single school of magic.
So, in closing, I do understand your concerns and things are underway to adjust these imbalances. However, we are dealing with specific circumstances and conditions, not with a class-breaking issue that I feel everyone is making it out to be. I have seen people like yourself posting calmly and giving direct impressions of a situation. I have also seen players post who meet all of the conditions stated above and say that they do not have a real issue with the matter. It seems these people are ignored for not being sensationalist enough. However, reasoned and calm responses are the ones I respond to best. Thanks for yours.
Your Lucky Numbers: 4 8 15 16 23 42
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