Poster: Ukulkos at 3/9/2006 4:43:33 PM PST
Subject: Why my guild dislikes 1.10 raid changes |
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I've touched before in one of my posts on the fact that my guild has taken a significant morale hit from the introduction of the 1.10 changes. Specifically, what we're concerned about is the reduced player limits on Strat, Scholo, BRD and BRS.
(To be fair, the rest of the patch looks great and is really good stuff.)
As you'd be aware, the new player cap for Strat, Scholo and BRD is 5. That means they're not raidable. The new cap for BRS is 10, which makes it a significantly different instance.
Now we're all well aware that these instances can be done with the new player caps, and aren't even that hard. Yes, fine, okay. But let me explain the experience of my guild, who is a guild on a new server who's only recently started hitting ZG, and who in the main doesn't yet have the full tier 0 sets, let alone MC/BWL gear.
Regardless of the difficulty of these instances, we are really saddened by the changed caps for the following reasons:
1) Training
The room for latitude in these instances, particularly Strat and Scholo, made them ideal training grounds for new players reaching endgame. They provided a safe and non-threatening way to learn the dramatic changes that take place between hitting 60 and continuing the rest of the game. We could take up and coming level 56+ players in, singly or in pairs, along with an accomplished raid group, and use it to train them up and let them get to know the endgame and the people they'd be playing it with. With a 10-man group, we could do this, knowing we could probably recover easily from any mistakes they made, with low enough stress that we could gently explain where they went wrong so they could learn for the future. With a 5-man limit, this just isn't practical any more.
2) Time
I have to confess, I haven't seen the changes to BRS yet regarding the lowered number of trash mobs. However, as I understand it Strat, Scholo and notably BRD are still the same mob density, and so the fact is that a 5 man group will still take longer to clear the instance than a 10 man group. I had trouble finding the time to do these instances two or three times a week even in a 10 man group. As a largely social and mature (read, employed) guild, I know a lot of my guildmates were in a similar position. If these early instances take longer in continuous stretches to do, it means we flat out can't do them as often, which comes with a related difficulty in forming a group at the times when we can do them.
3) Sociability
I don't care whether an instance is too easy with 10 people than 5. I've already done it a jillion times - I don't care about challenge anymore. I had to do it once on the "difficult" setting to complete my quests, and that was more than enough. Now I want to do my farming in large groups, because what makes the grind fun and in any way meaningful is the people I'm doing it with. These instance runs are a prime way that our guild builds interpersonal connections; they're social occasions, and frankly it's just not the same with five people. Five isn't the same chat dynamic, and what's more you have to concentrate harder to get through the instance, which means less chat.
These changes make it really hard for a social guild to transition to endgame. They're not fun, they're not promoting accessibility, and I'm completely unaware of any prior calls for Blizzard to make this change - it seems kind of out of the blue!
Up to now there were choices about how to approach endgame - you could raid it, if that was your thing, or you could underman it, if you liked challenge. I don't understand why these choices are now being made for us. It's hurting my guild badly, it's hurting my enjoyment of the game, and it feels random and arbitrary.
Solution
In case it's not clear, what we're looking for is for Blizzard to change it back.
Speaking for myself, I feel that there may even be something to be said for making these instances raidable up to 40 people. The drop rates would make 40 man raids an inefficient way of running the instance, and people would even out how many they wanted to take based on their preferences for how they wanted to play. Those capable of it would run quick 5-mans for better loot ratios, whereas you could also run it as a 40-man chaos "just for the hell of it".
EDIT: The solution above got added, seeing as CMs are always suggesting that a negative post should be accompanied by your suggestion of how to fix it.[ post edited by Ukulkos ]
Doing the happy dance since 1980.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-guild-relations&t=4573&p=#post4573 | | | Poster: Eyonix at 3/10/2006 11:17:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: Why my guild dislikes 1.10 raid changes |
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Given that I've closely watched the design evolution of 1.10 unfold over the last several weeks, specifically pertaining to all that which affects end-game dungeons, I've spent a great deal of thought concerning the best possible way in which I should respond to your post. Rather than formulate a response from my perspective as a Community Manager, I'd like to take a shot at simply responding to you as a regular player who currently has three level 60 characters - two Horde and one Alliance.
I've raided Stratholme, Scholomance and Blackrock Spire hundreds upon hundreds of times.
Your post reveals that your immediate reaction is to focus on that which is potentially lost. In my experience in dealing with people, this is a fairly normal reaction to change. Before I begin addressing each of your points, lets at least look at the larger picture and include what will be gained. That is important when evaluating the whole of a given situation.
Major itemization improvements
Improved loot distribution
Quest XP to gold conversion
New event activated bosses - fully itemized
Class specific quest series added
Select mobs removed for purposes relating to tedium
Now, with the above in mind lets look at your concerns a little closer.
Q u o t e:
1) Training
The room for latitude in these instances, particularly Strat and Scholo, made them ideal training grounds for new players reaching endgame. They provided a safe and non-threatening way to learn the dramatic changes that take place between hitting 60 and continuing the rest of the game. We could take up and coming level 56+ players in, singly or in pairs, along with an accomplished raid group, and use it to train them up and let them get to know the endgame and the people they'd be playing it with. With a 10-man group, we could do this, knowing we could probably recover easily from any mistakes they made, with low enough stress that we could gently explain where they went wrong so they could learn for the future. With a 5-man limit, this just isn't practical any more.
I agree to a point that 10-man Stratholme and Scholomance could serve as a training ground for players learning to raid end-game. Please keep in mind that in addition to running these instances repeatedly, I've cleared Zul'Gurub, Molten Core, and Blackwing Lair numerous times, with various guilds, meaning, I have extensive experience playing in all of our existing end-game dungeons, with the exception of AQ 40. With that being said, I don't feel that they were "ideal training grounds". Taking 10 players to a dungeon tuned for 5 in my humble opinion, is in-fact not the best way to introduce players to end-game raids such as Zul'Gurub or Molten Core.
Quite simply, in these 10-man dungeon zergs, the contribution needed from each player was minimal at best. In my experience, as many as two to three players at a time would /afk for several minutes, frequently without even alerting anyone. I've had players fall asleep on me, I've seen players dance during boss fights, go link-dead without anyone noticing. Many players don't ever feel the need to play optimally in these zergs, often times never assisting, or using crowd-control abilities, throwing down a Totem, or giving another player a Blessing (depending upon the faction).
I cannot count the number of times that I've run these raids and never once had to make a strategic choice during a single encounter, and in all the above scenarios, we'd complete the instance without wipe, and often without even a single incident death.
Unless of course someone threw a snowball at you while you were trying to run away from the disease cloud in Scholomance.
Take those you wish to train through these instances using only five players. They will be forced to contribute and play strategically. You can better gauge their strengths and weakness. The items and gold that they will gain with only five players in the group will benefit them more, gearing them up for the more challenging instances.
If you wish to take them on a raid, UBRS and LBRS will be capped at ten players. If you're still completely determined that zerging an instance is the best training ground, keep in mind, LBRS is tuned for five players as is UBRS up to the point that you fight Rend.
Q u o t e:
2) Time
I have to confess, I haven't seen the changes to BRS yet regarding the lowered number of trash mobs. However, as I understand it Strat, Scholo and notably BRD are still the same mob density, and so the fact is that a 5 man group will still take longer to clear the instance than a 10 man group. I had trouble finding the time to do these instances two or three times a week even in a 10 man group. As a largely social and mature (read, employed) guild, I know a lot of my guildmates were in a similar position. If these early instances take longer in continuous stretches to do, it means we flat out can't do them as often, which comes with a related difficulty in forming a group at the times when we can do them.
We've removed some tedium, but you're right not very much. Rest assured though, we will continue to monitor the time it's taking players to complete these instances. We ran many tests, and even when wearing all greens items, we completed Stratholme and Scholomance in under 90 minutes. I'd suggest part of your training encouraged efficiency, as that's an important aspect to focus on when running the larger raid dungeons.
Q u o t e:
3) Sociability
I don't care whether an instance is too easy with 10 people than 5. I've already done it a jillion times - I don't care about challenge anymore. I had to do it once on the "difficult" setting to complete my quests, and that was more than enough. Now I want to do my farming in large groups, because what makes the grind fun and in any way meaningful is the people I'm doing it with. These instance runs are a prime way that our guild builds interpersonal connections; they're social occasions, and frankly it's just not the same with five people. Five isn't the same chat dynamic, and what's more you have to concentrate harder to get through the instance, which means less chat.
This is a MMORPG. You create your own sociability. Adapt. Form two groups, and create a channel to interact in while running the instance(s). Start a race. Come up with your own ideas and solutions. If it were that we created these dungeons with the intended caps in place, it seems doubtful to me that you'd be at a social disadvantage. You're simply resisting a change when you just as easily could be figuring out how to best benefit from it.
Don't forget - this is a game. I don't say that to demean your concerns in any way, shape or form. As with all games there are rules and systems in place, some are flexible, some aren't. In an MMORPG, it is up to players to make the best of what's available. Those that create their own obstacles will always be at a severe disadvantage.
Our job is to make sure you have as many options as possible, and work to make the world fun, exciting and balanced for all its inhabitants.[ post edited by Eyonix ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-guild-relations&t=4573&p=#post5450 | Poster: Eyonix at 3/10/2006 2:44:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: Why my guild dislikes 1.10 raid changes |
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Q u o t e:
Eyonix you had a good post going there until
"Our job is to make sure you have as many options as possible, and work to make the world fun, exciting and balanced for all its inhabitants."
You aren't adding options there bud you are removing them. This is jus tanother example of Blizzard deciding how people should be doing things and when they don't do them you force them to. It's not fun and people should be pissed. You create a moving target for people to shoot for and it sucks for everyone to know that tommorrow it's going to be harder to get your set simply because the team at blizzard decided it was too easy.
"As many options as possible..."
At every stage of this game's design process it has been our responsibility to determine what potential options devalue an experience for our players. We have felt for some time that the existing player-cap on the dungeons in question most definitely do devalue the play-experience of those involved. With the many improvements going into the next patch, we made a design decision to ensure that the experience associated with running these instances was preserved, and that the rewards were plenty.
We could give you the option to spawn any item in the game, teleport to any location or even play in an invincible mode, but those options don't make for good gaming.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-guild-relations&t=4573&p=#post5785 |
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