Poster: Igniferroque at 8/16/2006 5:26:18 PM PDT
Subject: Min-maxing the Arena system |
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I suggest the developers share the exact details of the Arena system scoring system now or during the beta.
Experience has shown that players will a) reverse engineer any system you design and b) min-max that system once reverse engineered. So tell us how the system works now, we'll tell you how we'll min-max it, then you can decide if that's the behavior you'd like to encourage.
I was there for the birth of the honor cap on Bleeding Hollow. A few weeks after you began posting the honor scores and rankings, the system was reverse engineered and posted publically. We were in an AB group back in the day when you actually had to be in Arathi Highlands. A friend, an aeronautical engineer, was debating whether or not to push to GM that week or the week following. We disbanded the group for the hour while he "did the math." When we reformed, he had calculated that he couldn't make GM that week, told a peer to push for it instead and that he'd get it the next week. So it began.
I have no idea how the WoW designers feel about Raph Koster, but you'll find another example of min-maxing here:
http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/18/use-based-systems/
It shows how, by experimentation, people reverse-engineered UO's use-based skill system.
We have precious little information on how the Arena system will work. It will be like a chess rating system and there will be a minimum of 10 games required, as revealed by Jeff Kaplan during the Joystiq interview.
To demonstrate our affinity for min-maxing, I'll walk you through my ideas based on these two facts. My first thought is to get a group together and load them for bear: Flasks of Wisdom, Supreme Power, Titans, even Petrification for those times you need a three minute iceblock equivalent. Then, play the minimum number of games in this state.
Don't even have to play them all at once. Pick and choose our times when we're likely to encounter the least resistance. During prime time raiding hours. In the middle of the night. Mid-morning. Whenever you're likely to meet up with people who are PvPing honestly, for fun instead of simply to win.
Am I on target? Probably not, but I might be somewhere in the neighborhood. Regardless, you see how we'll think it through.
Share with us the details of the system and we'll tell you how we'll going to game it. And then you judge for yourselves if that's the game you want us to be playing.
As an idea to tune the system as I understand it to be - I didn't put too much thought into it because I'm just speculating here - give us an incentive to play more games. The current "grind or get demoted" disincentive lends itself to boring gameplay and you're absolutely right to move away from it.
To continue along the lines of your "honor point" currency, let us earn points to buy Arena loot. Instead of a winner take all system at the end of the three months, have a floor. If the system has a max rating of 10, everyone who has an 9 or more can 'buy' gear from the epic selection. Everyone who has a rating between 6 and 9 can 'buy' gear from the rare selection.
Maybe allow us to carry those epic or rare points over from season to season, thus not penalizing the people who fail to play 10 hours a day but still rewarding those who do.
These are conjectures based on an incomplete set of facts. So give us all the information of the Arena system before beta. By giving us the information now, we can give you feedback before its implemented and before it becomes so late you have patch in any changes.
Let me finish by saying, I'm all for the changes you're implementing in the Burning Crusade. Bravo. I'm very interested in getting this iteration of the PvP system right and many of us are more than willing and more than able to help.[ post edited by Igniferroque ]
The enemy's gate is down.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9552122 |
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Poster: Drysc at 8/17/2006 10:01:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system |
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We've kept a lot in mind while creating the arena system to help make it as centered on player skill as possible, and not time invested. We're looking to help create a place where players can track their achievements and improvements in a fun PvP environment. We're no strangers to the tactics and extent at which players will take a game to help ensure they reach their goal sooner or easier. It can however be minimized by simplifying a system so that the possible benefits available to a player are specific and tangible to everyone, and that the potential for exploitation is reduced as much as possible. With a complex system there will always be that something extra that can give you an edge over someone else, it's the size and availability of the edge that makes the difference though. We think we're making some great progress in creating place where players can come and test their PvP skill against others, have fun, and get some pretty cool rewards out of it too.
Just because you asked, here's some more information on the arena system. Hopefully this quells some of your concerns, and squashes a few assumptions. Please keep in mind that this information is subject to change, but these are our current plans for the PvP Arena system in The Burning Crusade expansion.
When a player enters an arena battle, all buffs and conjured items are purged/deleted. This is done to ensure no outside buffs or items from members outside of your team are able to be used in an arena battle.
No consumables other than bandages and conjured items can be used while in the arena. There will be a waiting area similar to the current battlegrounds where players on the team will be able to conjure items and cast buffs.
Abilities/spells/items with cooldowns longer than 15 minutes cannot be used while in the arena.
Each arena team will be given a rating, and will be matched up in the arena queue against teams of a similar rating (matching within that specific cross-realm battlegroup). As time progresses the matching system will broaden its search up to a limit if a closely rated team cannot be found.
Ratings adjustments are made in the same way that ELO ratings adjustments are made. This system works by adjusting each arena team's rating from a specific match based on the rating of the team they are up against. If a team wins against a team of a higher rating, the increase of their arena rating would be much higher than if they had won against a team of a lower rating. This system will help promote players improving their skill and besting teams which may have previously held the top spots.
At the end of each week, characters receive arena points based on their team's rating. A team must have fought a minimum number of battles for the week, which we have announced as currently set to 10 games. A player must have played in at least 30% of the team's battles that week in order to be eligible to receive arena points. Each eligible player will then receive a fraction of the teams total awarded points to spend on arena rewards.
Players may spend their points on arena rewards, or save their points until they have enough to get the rewards they desire.
There is a limit to the number of points a player can stockpile, which is currently planned to be as high as the most expensive item.
At the end of a season, players on a team are given a title based on their team's relative position on the ladder which will last through the next arena season.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9559694 |
Poster: Drysc at 8/17/2006 10:11:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system |
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Q u o t e:
So, Drysc, if you're still reading this, that means potions are out? Not just health/mana, but things like Moongoose, Troll's Blood, etc.
Correct.
Q u o t e:
So rogues can't use poisons, huh?
Nothing posted would imply that you would be unable to use temporary item buffs.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9559861 |
Poster: Drysc at 8/17/2006 10:11:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
So, Drysc, if you're still reading this, that means potions are out? Not just health/mana, but things like Moongoose, Troll's Blood, etc.
Correct.
Q u o t e:
So rogues can't use poisons, huh?
Nothing posted would imply that you would be unable to use temporary item buffs.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9559861 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:23:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system |
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Q u o t e:
Nothing posted would imply that you would be unable to use temporary item buffs.
In addition, you can use spells/abilities that require reagents if you so choose (as long as they still meet the other criteria).
So, for example, Blind and Prayer of Fortitude can be used, while Reincarnation cannot (due to its cooldown).
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560041 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:36:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system |
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Q u o t e:
I wonder if it would be possible for a team to feed *all* of the awarded points to a single player? A rotation, like warrior + 3 paladins... the warrior stays in, the paladins rotate.
At the end of each week, each character receives an equal number of the points. For characters that did not play in at least 30% of the battles, the points are lost.
So no, there shouldn't be any way to inflate the number of points any single player on the team receives.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560259 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:39:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system |
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Q u o t e:
It was not a good system, and it was too easy to exploit. All you had to do was throw a couple of games after a win streak to lower your ELL and then get easier matches. Sure your win/loss ratio would go down, but it was the easiest way to climb the ladder. I remember the 2v2 teams having mediocre win/loss ratios, but would always be at the top of the ladder.
edit: spelling
I think it's worth noting that War 3 doesn't use an ELO system... it has some elements that are based on ELO, but it's significantly hybridized.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560304 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:23:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Nothing posted would imply that you would be unable to use temporary item buffs.
In addition, you can use spells/abilities that require reagents if you so choose (as long as they still meet the other criteria).
So, for example, Blind and Prayer of Fortitude can be used, while Reincarnation cannot (due to its cooldown).
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560041 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:36:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
I wonder if it would be possible for a team to feed *all* of the awarded points to a single player? A rotation, like warrior + 3 paladins... the warrior stays in, the paladins rotate.
At the end of each week, each character receives an equal number of the points. For characters that did not play in at least 30% of the battles, the points are lost.
So no, there shouldn't be any way to inflate the number of points any single player on the team receives.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560259 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:48:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system |
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Q u o t e:
Will we see the class balance of the team we're up against before we go into combat?
No, you will not see the composition of the enemy team until the battle has begun.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560450 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 11:12:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system |
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Q u o t e:
Are bombs and grenades considered consumables, and therefore unusable in the arena? If they are considered consumables, I have no problem with that restriction. I'd just like to know, so I can adjust my tactics.
Correct, bombs and grenades are considered consumables.
Q u o t e:
So, since the rocket helm has a cool down of 15 minutes, it can still be used in the arena, correct?
Hmm, the goblin rocket helmet I'm looking at has a 20 min cooldown. Is yours different?
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560869 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 11:32:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system |
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Q u o t e:
whoa, the points that you are capped to is = to the most expensive item?
I hope that isn't true because what if you are like 1 point away and then win a match just for 1 point? Make it about 15% over so you can be able to buy the item but still be able to keep the points for the battle you just won to put you over the top.
It's more accurate to say the point limit is approximately equal to the most expensive item (slightly higher).
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9561222 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 11:12:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Are bombs and grenades considered consumables, and therefore unusable in the arena? If they are considered consumables, I have no problem with that restriction. I'd just like to know, so I can adjust my tactics.
Correct, bombs and grenades are considered consumables.
Q u o t e:
So, since the rocket helm has a cool down of 15 minutes, it can still be used in the arena, correct?
Hmm, the goblin rocket helmet I'm looking at has a 20 min cooldown. Is yours different?
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560869 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 11:32:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
whoa, the points that you are capped to is = to the most expensive item?
I hope that isn't true because what if you are like 1 point away and then win a match just for 1 point? Make it about 15% over so you can be able to buy the item but still be able to keep the points for the battle you just won to put you over the top.
It's more accurate to say the point limit is approximately equal to the most expensive item (slightly higher).
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9561222 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:23:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Nothing posted would imply that you would be unable to use temporary item buffs.
In addition, you can use spells/abilities that require reagents if you so choose (as long as they still meet the other criteria).
So, for example, Blind and Prayer of Fortitude can be used, while Reincarnation cannot (due to its cooldown).
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560041 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:36:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
I wonder if it would be possible for a team to feed *all* of the awarded points to a single player? A rotation, like warrior + 3 paladins... the warrior stays in, the paladins rotate.
At the end of each week, each character receives an equal number of the points. For characters that did not play in at least 30% of the battles, the points are lost.
So no, there shouldn't be any way to inflate the number of points any single player on the team receives.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560259 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:39:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
It was not a good system, and it was too easy to exploit. All you had to do was throw a couple of games after a win streak to lower your ELL and then get easier matches. Sure your win/loss ratio would go down, but it was the easiest way to climb the ladder. I remember the 2v2 teams having mediocre win/loss ratios, but would always be at the top of the ladder.
edit: spelling
I think it's worth noting that War 3 doesn't use an ELO system... it has some elements that are based on ELO, but it's significantly hybridized.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560304 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:48:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Will we see the class balance of the team we're up against before we go into combat?
No, you will not see the composition of the enemy team until the battle has begun.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560450 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 10:48:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Will we see the class balance of the team we're up against before we go into combat?
No, you will not see the composition of the enemy team until the battle has begun.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560450 |
Poster: Kalgan at 8/17/2006 11:12:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Min-maxing the Arena system *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Are bombs and grenades considered consumables, and therefore unusable in the arena? If they are considered consumables, I have no problem with that restriction. I'd just like to know, so I can adjust my tactics.
Correct, bombs and grenades are considered consumables.
Q u o t e:
So, since the rocket helm has a cool down of 15 minutes, it can still be used in the arena, correct?
Hmm, the goblin rocket helmet I'm looking at has a 20 min cooldown. Is yours different?
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9552122&p=#post9560869 |
