Poster: Sx at 8/14/2006 8:30:01 AM PDT
Subject: So Hybrids will have a job...but what about.. |
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Coming from a 40-man Horde raid group, I keep hearing all this talk about making hybrids viable. This confuses me a bit, as we've never even considered running less than 5 shaman, etc.
But what about the single-focus classes?
With all this talk of making it so less people=more diversity for each class, where is a rogue/hunter type going to fit in?
Why bring a class that only brings one thing to the table, when you can bring a triple-threat?
Your rogue review was pitiful, addressed few concerns, and going forward, rogues look to be in even more trouble.
Rogues/Hunters used to be the highest single target damage dealers, with reduced aggro, to make them viable.
You've given aggro reduction to mages, will be giving it to druids, gave to cloak enchants, to trinkets, etc...
Fury warriors can out dps anyone single target now. Mages/Warlocks/Warriors on multi-targets too. And being that the warrior can swap gear, and be a tank in need, I ask again, do you have a role for rogue/hunters in your expansion and reduced 25-man raids?
Cause the way it looks now, warriors/priests/hybrids/any nameless, faceless dps will be all that's needed.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 8:38:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what about.. |
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The 25 man raid dungeons gives the opportunity to create experiences that require individual excellence. This means that these encounters can be designed to take advantage of class strengths and abilities such as needing a rogue or two in order to disarm traps etc.
There is a conscientious effort to create challenging encounters for players while bringing about a certain element of strategy in choosing who will best strengthen the group.
Let me 'infotain' you. Let me make you smile.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9512246&p=#post9512388 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 8:46:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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Q u o t e:
Not to mention allowing smaller guilds to access to content. Small doesn't have to = non raiding afterall =p.
That's a bonus of it definitely. I know many small guilds that are very choosy about adding members to their guild and don't like to mass recruit to fill raids. Many of those guilds in order to do 40 mans work with equal sized guilds. With the addition of the 25 mans they can still do a joint raid with another skilled guild and then do their own thing in the 25s.
The larger guilds will be able to continue to do the 40s as well as can break off into smaller groups to conquer the 5,10 and 25s for the expansion.
Let me 'infotain' you. Let me make you smile.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9512246&p=#post9512554 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 9:00:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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Q u o t e:
Or we can just repeat the mistakes made in EQ and create an "A Team" and have the leftovers compete for the coveted 72.. err 25 raid spots. Rathe Council -> PoTime anyone? Naaa WoW learned from those mistakes.
The problem with any number, no matter the number is that someone at some point in time is going to be left out or come up short. Either a guild will not have enough people or will have too many. There are many guilds that have far more than 40. There are many guilds that are lucky to have 20. There are many guilds that have 50, etc.
The 25 dungeon raids that are being created are being done to focus on individual achievement and contribution to the group. There is a little extra intimacy to a group that we all have experienced in 5,10s and 20s before.
Don't let the cap of 25 fool you into thinking these will be walks in the park however. Players will need to work very very well together and a mistake by one player isn't so easily made up for.[ post edited by Nethaera ]
Let me 'infotain' you. Let me make you smile.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9512246&p=#post9512806 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 9:04:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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Q u o t e:
We need a hole that catform needs to stealth through to open a door... and to open the door you have to heal a Tree to full health on the other side of the door.
Yeah. That'd be cool.
/rolleyes
A catdoor? ;)
Let me 'infotain' you. Let me make you smile.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9512246&p=#post9512893 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 9:13:32 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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Q u o t e:
1 or 2 rogues, per raid? i hope you guys will provide some new solo-content for rogues (a'la incendius/BRD coffers), so we can do something while we wait to get a spot in any raid group.
That was JUST an example. For all I know, a group might want 5 rogues or 10. ;)
As for the comments about there being no original developers left, that is a common misconception. There are founders and developers that have been here since the start that are still here. The company is the same though I'd prefer we not go off on that tangent. (Please don't force me to delete any posts that go off the topic here.)
Let me 'infotain' you. Let me make you smile.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9512246&p=#post9513054 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 9:34:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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The point of not just having two guilds in general is that to many it's like breaking up a family. At least by keeping everyone under one tag, they can still talk to each other and group up for all the other parts of the content in the game such as the smaller dungeons, PvP etc. While I know people are concerned about "A" teams or "B" teams, I have seen that occur even now WITH 40 man raids. Most guilds already have a "core" group of players they prefer to use the most for key roles in dungeons etc.
This change isn't really changing things as much as people may think on the guild management end of things since many guilds have faced these challenges in one way or another before. It's up to individual guilds to work out among themselves what is going to work best as a whole for their guild. If it's creating an "A" team and a "B" team then that is what they need to do. If it's creating a secondary guild that functions as its own unit, then that is what it is. If it's recruiting more people, then that is what they need to do.
Not to mention, the 40 main raids like Naxxramas or Molten Core or AQ40 are still in existence. Many guilds are going to still choose to cut their teeth on those for the gear before they go marching into Outland.
To answer the other question brought up about if those dungeons will be scaled down; at this point, there are no plans to scale them down. There are many guilds that are still learning them and experiencing them as they are. Should there show a need for them to be adjusted it will be considered. We also realize that as people level up, they may decide to go back to those dungeons with less than 40 but say, 20-25 60 plusses and handle it just fine.
Please note, I realize there are a lot of gray areas in here that I didn't address. It would be nearly impossible for me to do so. These are largely generalities and there are always exceptions to the rules.[ post edited by Nethaera ]
Let me 'infotain' you. Let me make you smile.
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Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 9:51:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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Q u o t e:
this decision is concrete then, there isnt a chance of you guys reverting back to 40 man instances?
At this point, I'd say no. This isn't about taking the 'easy' way out like people want to say. These dungeons will be complex and interesting.
Also, think about the prep time that will be cut down. Waiting for less people to get together is a good thing. I know many people have experienced what it's like to get people from multiple time zones together, people run late, people have to stop for materials to make pots or travel from the other side of the world. Then add to the time factor how many times someone goes afk in the middle of the raid for something and multiply that number. ;) This can also allow for easier substitutions for when people leave a raid early. With players waiting in the wings they are able to fill those spots and the raid can continue.
Let me 'infotain' you. Let me make you smile.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9512246&p=#post9513748 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 9:57:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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Q u o t e:
You still are breaking up a family even if you stay in guild. If 40 people have been working together for two + years, and all of a sudden half of those people have to be cut or relegated to a secondary role then you might as well be telling two of your brothers and your aunt that they are no longer invited to the family reunion, and if they don't like it, they can hold their own. Oh, and if they don't have enough people to really justify a reunion, just have some more kids!
Really, I like this analogy. If for two years we held our family reunions in a hall big enough for 100 people, and then one year, decide without discussion, to hold it in a place that only holds 55 people, wouldn't it cause harm to the family? Sure, they can still talk on the phone. Heck, they can go get dinner together somewhere else. But they can't all be together. Sorry guys, the hall only sits 55 now. Tough luck for those who don't get in.
Edit: To be clear, I like the idea of 25 man instances. However I don't like the idea of that being the biggest option available. Make a lot of them. If you look at the launch of WoW, you had a large number of 5,10, and 15 man instances and only one 40 man. That's fine. But don't eliminate the 40 man from the game.
The 40 mans will still exist in the ones that are in game now. I understand what you are saying however, I'm saying these 'family' breakups happen even now and so does any variety of guild drama. This change is going to shake things up but it isn't the only source of guild issues. Anytime you get a variety of people together, no matter how long they've been playing together, you are going to have some sort of favoritism, cliques and more. How many times has some non-member been put into a member's spot in a raid because a member didn't make it in time or was just not performing up to par? These things happen and will continue to happen no matter what cap raids or dungeons are set to. It's a part of human nature.
Let me 'infotain' you. Let me make you smile.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9512246&p=#post9513897 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 10:10:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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The best thing I can possibly say is for people to start discussing these changes with your guilds. Get feedback on how people would like to best address any problems that may come up and then find a way to make it work for everyone.
Other than that, I need to advise people to be wary of theory. Until you (or those you know) actually get to try things out, you won't have the best picture possible.
No, I'm not trying to spin anything or tell people that rain is just liquid sunshine (though I personally like rain). I am looking forward to the challenges of the new 25s. I'm also looking forward to the PvP changes and additions.
You live and learn. At any rate, you live.
D.Adams
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9512246&p=#post9514121 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 10:20:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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Q u o t e:
apparently you haven't been raiding w/ the same 40ish people for nearly 2 years.
More like over 6 years.
You live and learn. At any rate, you live.
D.Adams
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9512246&p=#post9514288 |
Poster: Nethaera at 8/14/2006 10:29:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: So Hybrids will have a job...but what abo |
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I also would suggest putting any new suggestions people have about guild functions or raid functions on the suggestion forum. We really aren't allowed to respond to ideas but if you feel you have some that should be looked at, please feel free to post them there.
You live and learn. At any rate, you live.
D.Adams
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