Poster: Zoltar at 8/1/2006 12:56:53 PM PDT
Subject: Complaints, Blizzard, and You |
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Blizzard,
Love your show. Long time listener, first time caller. (Actually, this isn't true. I've made just a few posts, mostly concerning the problems Warlocks had waaaayyy back in the day before any class was reviewed and one post pointing out Caydiem's exceptionally flawed logic that Gnomes can be Warriors because they use their naturally quick thinking to make up for lack of physical strength.....which goes against a skill called Overpower.....but that is neither here nor there).
Lately you guys have made some rather interesting choices. My concern isn't about the choices themselves, but the pretentious manner you go about dismissing the various objections and complaints regarding these changes.
I'm not bothering to link the threads (someone can do that if they feel like it, but anyone familiar with the boards will know what I'm referring to), but there is this perception that the people upset with the changes are somehow a vocal minority. There have been times where that phrase has directly been used (usually in response to a post saying "Great job, Blizzard, don't let the naysayers get you down!"). Im not sure how many charts and graphs I would need to demonstrate why this idea does not follow logically.
If you were really interested in what your playerbase thought, you would have some sort of polling system that might be able to gauge their thoughts on changes such as the seemingly nonsensical upcoming class switches and the downright absurd notion of limiting Blood Elves from becoming Warriors. But you won't do this. Let me preempt what you are going to say. You were probably wanting to type something to the effect that the developers do not want to run a game by playerbase committee and they shouldn't be constrained or such polls will give players unreasonable expectations, and so on and so forth. These remarks would be unresponsive to my point (see above paragraph). Let's try and stay focused, shall we? Also, don't argue yourself into minutia by coming back with the "Well some players will think all changes are important" line, because, once again, that is unresponsive to the point above. Class switching and the Blood Elf Warrior issue are things that you know in your Blizzard heart would be of great concern to your playerbase.
But you aren't interested. In fact, you don't want to embark on such an endeavor especially regarding the recent topics because that might reveal how drastically out of touch you are with your playerbase. And yes, people can use the wonderfully market-driven response of "If you don't like it, quit." There, there, little ones, you have made your point. The problem with this simplistic position is that it contradicts a fundamental aspect of any good MMORPG: the developers and the playerbase itself help create an enjoyable context. But, we can't expect the people making the above-mentioned response to understand that, can we?
And here is the catch, I suppose. You are secure in your knowledge that sales will not be affected and the complaints will just go away if you pat the complainers on the head and use vague PR terminology in trying to distract us from the clear disconnect between players and the developers.
Or, I could be wrong and you could give some sort of, I dont know, reason, that these recent changes have been made. To be fair, I understand the Shaman/Pally switch: you just want things to be easier to design down the road. I get that. It is weak in that it shows you've lost the drive to be creative with your game, but whatever. It is yours and I will play it. To be honest, I'm mystified at the Blood Elf warrior thing. Im trying to figure out what angle the developers are playing and how it will make their jobs easier by doing this, but I simply cannot at the moment.
However, I will continue to pay for this game well after the expansion has been released. Why? Because at the end of the day you have made a great product despite yourselves.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9323665&p=#post9323665 | | | Poster: Tseric at 8/1/2006 1:18:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Complaints, Blizzard, and You |
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Explaining changes, talking to players and "keeping in touch with the player base", is a lot easier to do in person than it is on a message board. ComiCon was a great time to discuss the shaman/paladin change because I could look people in the eye and conversations flow much better.
Your post sort of infers that the forum posters are a majority and that this one method of keeping in touch is the end all be all of a company interacting with its players. This is simply one aspect and piling all your hopes and dreams upon the forums might not be the best method to seeing your dreams realized. There are inherent limitations to these forums that many individuals try to overcome by force alone.
Aside from that, there are some decisions with which a public discussion does not help or facilitate. Frankly, the shaman/paladin change was one of these.
It was not a decision made flippantly to "mix things up" or "give the feeling of a new class without making a new class". It also was a decision that had little to do with desires or fantasies for players, but rather addressed core design concerns affecting the whole of the game.
How many people would still go on with their own opinion regardless of the information we presented to them? I could guess that it would probably be a lot and I would base that on previous experience.
The fact of the matter is, the change would go through because we do not want two competing class design approaches in this game. By offering beforehand some notion that this should be voted on would be misleading not only for the specific case, but for the general expectations of these forums in general.
The fact is, many players come with the expectation that this is somewhere to do something other than discuss the game and offer feedback. The fact that people are upset about changes merely demonstrates feedback offered and fills the purpose of these boards. What you are suggesting is another step by which you are offered control in decisions, which is not the purpose of these boards, nor would they serve that purpose if they were to be assigned to such things.
There are several methods by which player opinion, behavior and reaction can be measured beyond what happens on these forums.
Q u o t e:
To be fair, I understand the Shaman/Pally switch: you just want things to be easier to design down the road. I get that. It is weak in that it shows you've lost the drive to be creative with your game, but whatever.
One more time. With Shaman and Paladins relegated to a single faction, the issue was primarily two competing design philosophies:
Rock/Paper/Scissors for all classes but Shaman/Paladin
Class comparison in a one-to-one manner for just these two classes(Shaman/Pally).
Competing design philosophy in a game will inevitably ruin the game. These were two design philosophies driving classes away from each other.
It's not about "being creative enough", it's a fact of reality from the design angle. More ingenuity isn't going to make it work. It just won't work no matter how you slice it.[ post edited by Tseric ]
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9323665&p=#post9324096 | Poster: Tseric at 8/1/2006 1:49:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Complaints, Blizzard, and You |
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Q u o t e:
I think they said that this was a hot issue of debate internally during initial development. The argument was probably made that faction-specific classes would hamper the class design team's freedom for those against it. They clearly decided having 'faction flavour' was worth this price.
Since then they've obviously changed their mind. The price (lack of freedom) was, at the time, largely abstract. Having designed around this bottleneck for over a year and a half I guess they finally decided it was keeping them from doing to much cool stuff; the price was, finally too high. Hence the change.
That's all guesses based on my own inferences from blue posts though. Additional theories welcome ;)
Those are very good inferences. That follows very much along with what happened internally.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9323665&p=#post9324611 | Poster: Tseric at 8/1/2006 2:20:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Complaints, Blizzard, and You |
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Q u o t e:
Tseric,
Thanks for your post. You offered well-reasoned statements concerning the utility of the forums and stated that some changes may not ever be up for discussion. However, I think that you missed the point and concerned yourself entirely too much with collateral issues. I'm not sure a reasonable reading of my post would infer that the forums are the end all, be all of playerbase feedback. I explicitly pointed out that I did not suggest the game should be ran by some sort of voting system. My God, your blatant misunderstanding of my post might actually prove my point, but lets forge ahead. The point is that there appears to be a disconnect, if not blatant disregard, with large segments of the community.
And yes, I am aware that posters on the forums represent a minority. Just like the valuable face time you had at E3 was with a minority of players. I'm sure there are legions of players who could not care less about what it is Blizzard does (within certain parameters). I would suggest that those people may even be the majority. (Of course, if they are, then those people would be irrelevant to this discussion, which would make a polling system even more reasonable, but why bother with semantics, right?)
Several people in this thread have pointed out that successful interaction (or at least the appearance of it) with the developers is vitally important. While this is a great game there are things that can threaten the experience.
Players dont want input on all of the changes, Tseric. But dont sell them a world where you intentionally cultivate an individual/social experience and discount outcries when you make drastic changes to that experience.
Also, why do you downplay the importance of the forums as just one of the factors on feedback. Where, my friend, are the other large sources of interaction and input? E-mails? Actual mail? Telegrams? Sky-writing?
Cheers
Post-Script: I'm not suggesting that polling is some magical solution. This isn't directed at you, Tseric.
We have had webchats before. Quite possible we'll have them again, time permitting.
In all honesty, I would like you to compare the levels of interaction that this Community Team provides to some other source.
The issue I have is that many people look at these forums as a default complaint center. THey then get upset when their complaint isn't addressed to their satisfaction. This is primarily due to people wanting customer satisfaction from an area that can not reasonably offer it.
Aside from that, you make the statement that we do not keep in touch. Is this compared to some other company or just this one on its own?
I would suggest that we offer a level of contact and interaction that exceeds industry standard. Would you be willing to argue that?
What I would like for you to at least acknowledge is your statement:
Q u o t e:
The point is that there appears to be a disconnect, if not blatant disregard, with large segments of the community.
How am I supposed to address an appearance of disconnection?
I provide information from development on a pretty regular basis. I recognize and acknowledge many issues from large to small. While I may not hit them all on any given day, I have probably addressed a great number of things.
So, what exactly creates this 'apparent disconnect'? Is it just a bunch of people posting 'Bliz ignores us?' or are there other things that actually contribute to that?
Are you sure we aren't just caught in a wave of anger/excitement/frustration over several 'whopper' changes, which is bringing this issue to the forefront, temporarily?
There are a lot of things which can go into this apparent disconnect. Not all of them hold up over time.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9323665&p=#post9325079 | Poster: Tseric at 8/1/2006 2:27:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Complaints, Blizzard, and You |
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Q u o t e:
So Tseric, the fair number of departures in the Blizzard team since release have nothing to do with the current change in design philosophy? Really?
What, you mean the people that weren't working on this game to begin with? Or did you mean some other people?
The people that worked on this game that have left are one or two producers and several animators.
I know people like to say that 'the whole Blizz team left', but it just isn't true. It is also Off-Topic.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9323665&p=#post9325190 | Poster: Tseric at 8/1/2006 2:31:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Complaints, Blizzard, and You |
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Q u o t e:
Let me repeat that: if this change is so central to the ongoing health of the game, why is it being reserved for an 'optional' expansion?
Because our efforts are now going into design for abilities and spells for level 70. There will be a new end-game balance. It's about design options for the future which we are already capitalizing on.
"You should just balance the classes now" is sort of nonsensical, as most of what is reaped from this decision is already seeing benefit for us, just not for you, yet.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9323665&p=#post9325252 | Poster: Tseric at 8/1/2006 2:32:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Complaints, Blizzard, and You |
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Q u o t e:
Thanks for ignoring the point of my post. You know, the bolded part.
Way to be impatient and picky.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9323665&p=#post9325261 | Poster: Tseric at 8/1/2006 2:40:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Complaints, Blizzard, and You |
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Q u o t e:
[These forums] are a courtesy provided to Blizzard's subscribers that offers a place to discuss everyone's favorite game and get additional information about changes.
Nothing more.
For my part in this thread and for being able to speak on behalf of the company and the Community team, this should be quoted for truth.
If you ever find your post gets deleted, think of this mantra first and things might make more sense.
Now, if other points of contact can or should be created is a matter for continued discussion, but I would very much like our position and purpose to be clear in this.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9323665&p=#post9325365 | Poster: Tseric at 8/1/2006 3:35:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Complaints, Blizzard, and You |
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Q u o t e:
I'm more on Blizzard's side of this argument for the most part, even though I don't neccessarily like the decisions that have been made recently (e.g. the so-called World PvP).
What I would like to emphasize and reiterate is that the concerns, complaints and comments made by people who are active on the forums should not be dismissed as easily as they have been lately. I'm not saying you have to take into consideration everything or even anything we say or that it should influence game design, but I do assert that you're strongly mistaken if you think that we are in any way an isolated group who are not representative of the opinions of the larger player base.
Though only a small fragment of the WoW players out there visit the forums on a regular basis, the things they read here they bring back to the game with them and pass around to everyone else they talk to in the game. In fact even players who do not read these forums consider them an "official" source of information, even if the information they read here isn't from a Blizzard poster. For instance if someone posts something like "armor has diminishing returns" here, which is a misconception about how armor works, it gets passed around not just to people in the forum community but to everyone in the game. People who don't even know how to get on the forums still go around repeating that two years after it was posted and a good six months or so after it was rigorously disproven (information dissipates slowly). In fact I bet I'll get a few token posts from people who read this telling me I'm a stupid newb, and that armor does have diminishing returns.
The second half of this is that opinions aren't formed solely in one person's mind - no man is an island. It's true that some people are simply stubborn and misinformed and their complains are brought to the forums with no foundation or understanding, and nobody can possibly argue them out of their angry little corners. But more often, people form their overall opinions based on what they hear from others as measured by their own experiences, and much of that interaction happens outside the forums. Out of a group of fourty people who share similar opinions on a given subject, only one is likely to write up a two page long dissertation on it and post it here, but he didn't come up with the idea on his own.
I can tell you that personally, I have found that the general consensus and major trends these boards are in line with the consensus and trends outside of them. I don't read about a hot topic on the forums here, and then step into WoW and find myself a tiny concerned drop in a huge ocean of contentment. So you can say I belong to a tiny group of people who all play on a similar set of servers that all happen to generally follow forum trends if you like, but I find that improbable.
The short of the last three paragraphs is: dismiss players' opinions if you like, it's your game, but don't dismiss forum posters' opinions as a minority of people who do not significantly represent what's going on with the game as a whole.
You make very good points.
However, when someone asserts themselves in terms such as 'We think this...' and 'We think that...', I will merely challenge that by saying 'No, that's what you think. Why do you think that way?'
I often ask questions, even when providing a counter-point. I am open to doubt, vagueness of large numbers and other variables and uncertainty when trying to have concrete discussion.
I only take issue with individuals speaking for others. It distracts from their real, honest opinion and feedback. Having to stick up for your own opinion without public approval keeps an opinion honest, rather than diluted with /bump or /agree. When people start appealing to the masses, that's where I call shenanigans.
I simply try to avoid bandwagon effects where possible, even though sometimes it's not possible.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
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