Poster: Nog at 7/15/2006 5:21:56 PM PDT
Subject: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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Hi,
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First, a little about myself. I've played since release of the game and created about twenty or thirty characters before I "decided" upon one. I managed to get a Dwarf Warrior to about level 46 before I deleted him. Since then, I've got an Orc Warlock to level 36 before I deleted him and many other alts have come and gone. I don't currently have any real "main" that I play with.
I have a very casualist attitude when it comes to this game and, I prefer to RP/PvE than PvP (atleast, for WoW...I'm pretty heavy on FPS' and RTS games). I played EQ on and off for about four, maybe five years. I've dabbled a little in CoH and CoV, but found those to be excruciatingly shallow. I think if I could ever find something (MMO) I could get into, I could devote myself to a more hard/core player presence in gaming.
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This thread isn't really persay about my experiences in PvP or with the higher end gaming, because I've never bothered to try to experience them. This is merely an overview of things I've read and heard from other players and developers/PR reps from this game and others.
I believe it was mentioned, well before the release of this game and throughout its development, the focus of the game wasn't necessarily to make anything groundbreaking, but to capitalize on the best of what was being offered by the genre, currently. When I say currently I'm referring to perhaps two or three years ago.
Upon it's release and especially during parts of beta (from what I understand), it had definately delivered on what it promised; it incorporated many aspects of past games and improved on them and of course through in the flare of the unique charisma of Warcraft lore.
During the time prior of it's release, many people were dying for something else, something better that could utilize the technology being offered and that of the future. Not necessarily just in the realm of graphical presentation, but in the expansiveness and the ingenuity of possibility. EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, to name a few were becoming stale and the genre itself was succumbing to a kind of apathetic direction.
I'm not one to say I know why or why not a game is successful, but I think a lot of the points of WoW's success are very obvious. Many of World of Warcraft's customers are former/current Battle.net junkies. Many, many people loved their experiences on Warcraft I/II/III, Starcraft, and Diablo. Blizzard's reputation for great games undoubtedly had at least something to do with the popularity of WoW. Another being the "ease of use"---it's "casual player-friendly" approach. The MMO genre was not necessarily one of elitists, but loyalists. It was closed off to most other gamers who prefered the..."simplicity" other games offered and their familiarity.
Once WoW came around, things in the MMO genre changed significantly. This game currently holds upwards of 5-6 million (?) customers, something never before heard of in similiar games. Other developers and companies took notice of the popularity, and in their own way began trying to utilize, perhaps in some ways copy WoW.
Although it's successful release, the game has been constantly plagued by problems, most especially the server stabilitiy. On some of the lower population servers this isn't as noticeable, but it's hindered playability time and time again on those servers with more players. I've heard that on several occasions servers crashed repeatedly during the AQ world event. There were also the "promised" hero classes and long-ignored battlegrounds that caused frustration amongst the player base. Some of which has been implemented, though not necessarily solved...
So many people still play and enjoy this game, despite it's problems. There are others, however that are merely waiting to jump ship once again to another game that promises greener fields. The genre is on the brink of another Age (or the next-gen as it's so commonly referred to). There are several MMOs in development, with a solid number showing great potential in the minds of many players (I myself am looking foward to WAR, AoC and Vanguard).
During this long wait for the next bunch of up and comers, the genre is somewhat, again, stagnant. Those that thought Guildwars or D&D would destroy this game, were obviously wrong, but in their person views...they are in a way right. Eventually, there will be a game or games that come around that strip the WoW player base down, perhaps significantly. Again, I don't want to sound like I'm prosletyzing the end of this game any time soon, I'm merely stating a fact of nature, that all things come to an end...
It has seemed that as technology improves things change faster. That's terribly obvious I know, but in a way it has to do with some current issues with this game.
Near the beginning of this thread I mentioned that when this game was in development the focus was really on making a solid game, based off the current characteristics of other successful games. We have what we have now, and we compare that to what we see coming. We see soon that there will be games offering the greater expansiveness and potential our imaginations have so longed for, in ANY MMO/RPG (this one included). Especially in the area of Player vs. Player, we see games that are offering "more" than WoW does; more destruction, more open-endedness----less limits on the player's capability to engage other players in fantastic (fantasy-based) battles.
I've noted personally atleast two major disagreements with the progress of WoW, as of the last few months:
1). Player vs Player.
2). Lore.
I want to talk more about the lore aspect but I may leave that for someone else to do, and of course it's been discussed several times by many others. Briefly, I would like to say several are/seemed disappointed because the lore has been "twisted" and perhaps distorted so much it really isn't "warcraft" anymore.
In regards to PvP, what we have had in WoW are the battlegrounds and to a much, much lesser degree world PvP. Before battlegrounds were implemented it wasn't uncommon to experience ceaseless onslaught between the factions in Hillsbrad's Tarren Mill and Southshore. Constant plundering and engagment of enemies and their bases provided a type of entertainment that many felt should have been better influenced and developed within the game itself. That the game should have significantly promoted Player vs. Player as the title suggests: World of WARcraft.
Since then, things have changed in what several players feel to be the wrong direction the game should be taking. Many players, including myself (although I've not really experienced it), feel the game is becoming entirely too Raid centric. I always felt more should have been done for the RPers too, but that's my opinion.
Now, Blizzard deserves credit for atleast trying to appease the customer base. Many may feel that the current plan for World PvP in the two zones, namely in Silithus, isn't the way to go.
Silithyst (Magic Sand---"Sandlol"), just seems very uncreative and imaginitve to many players. When they can look to the games coming to the near future and see what they have to offer, or promise to offer, Sand just doesn't cut it. Then again perhaps it's best for the way this game has been developed and programmed, for this type of system to be introduced.
This is everyone's game. This game belongs to Blizzard, it's developers, it's staff and workers, and it's player base. In legal and technical sense, priority and obvious practicality, it is Blizzard's game. Though in a literal standpoint, the game does belong as much to the players as it does Blizzard, for without us, there would be no WoW.
The "executive" decisions for implementing things, changing things in this game ultimately comes to the developers. In it, their vision was to create a game that many could enjoy and many have, and many are itching to leave.
I really wanted this thread to just be kind of a way that the developers point of view and the player's point of view could come into contact, to try to better this game. I wanted to remind people of how each side felt about the game; how the developers saw it in the beginning and how it was, then also how the players felt about the game and where it's going with or without the comparison of upcoming MMOs.
I don't know what I'm really trying to say :P. My opinion isn't really relevant, if for no other reason than I've lost interest in WoW. Feel free to express your thoughts and ideas.
Thanks for reading (assuming you did :P)[ post edited by Nog ]
http://www.sandlol.ytmnd.com/
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9079318 | | | Poster: Tseric at 7/15/2006 6:35:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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Well-composed and reasonable read, even if you weren't sure of your exact point.
I would simply add a comment to this thread that may or may not give it some direction.
I think the MMO genre has a fundamentally different effect on how people play games, than say a single player game does.
It goes beyond player economies or guild organizations or other types of play which come with a larger social interaction.
You started out by stating that you have been playing since release. Can we assume you have enjoyed the majority of your experience? How does this time spent compare to any other type of game you have played in your life?
The standard play time for a single player game is usually cited at 60-80 hours. Most games generally last that long and it could be considered the feature-film length for games.
The average play time of an MMO subscriber generally exceeds 80 hours by a fair margin. Pretty much any MMO that has been released has set a different standard by sheer quantity of time played. Players are getting more than before, yet are expecting more on top of that.
For discussion's sake, what are the ways and reasons that players expect much more out of this genre than they would of a game from a different genre? Looking for some introspection, here.
Identification with your character is one leaping point.
The process of development and the changing state of the game is another one.
Pontificate.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9080025 | Poster: Tseric at 7/15/2006 6:37:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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Q u o t e:
I keep making threads that don't stab at a person's perspective of this game, thus provoking little to no responses
You have to give your expectations more room to come to fruition.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9080043 | Poster: Tseric at 7/15/2006 6:35:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. *edited post* |
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Well-composed and reasonable read, even if you weren't sure of your exact point.
I would simply add a comment to this thread that may or may not give it some direction.
I think the MMO genre has a fundamentally different effect on how people play games, than say a single player game does.
It goes beyond player economies or guild organizations or other types of play which come with a larger social interaction.
You started out by stating that you have been playing since release. Can we assume you have enjoyed the majority of your experience? How does this time spent compare to any other type of game you have played in your life?
The standard play time for a single player game is usually cited at 60-80 hours. Most games generally last that long and it could be considered the feature-film length for games.
The average play time of an MMO subscriber generally exceeds 80 hours by a fair margin. Pretty much any MMO that has been released has set a different standard by sheer quantity of time played. Players are getting more than before, yet are expecting more on top of that.
For discussion's sake, what are the ways and reasons that players expect much more out of this genre than they would of a game from a different genre? Looking for some introspection, here.
Identification with your character is one leaping point.
The process of development and the changing state of the game is another one.
Pontificate.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9080025 | Poster: Tseric at 7/15/2006 6:37:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
I keep making threads that don't stab at a person's perspective of this game, thus provoking little to no responses
You have to give your expectations more room to come to fruition.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9080043 | Poster: Tseric at 7/15/2006 10:59:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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Q u o t e:
Unfortunately Tseric this is all the reason we need.
when i buy a console or other non-mmo type game i expect only what i get out of the box. nothing more.
if i do not like that game then i will probably not purchase any sequels to that game and if it is bad enough then i may blacklist that publisher/designer.
With MMO's it is different though because once you have sold the product off the shelf it is not the end.
You ask me to re-commit my self to this game every month and i in turn expect you to "sell" me a little on this game every month. this alone sets higher expectations for this game. *snip*
Bottom-line thinking. I can appreciate that. But, if you follow the math of dollars per hour spent, does it still not work out as a better investment than a one-time purchase of 80 hours of game play?
I am looking at that equation loosely, so if anyone wants to do the hard math and paint a clearer picture, I don't suppose anyone would object to harder numbers.
However, I agree with you on your basic point of difference between other games and MMOs.
This is a service, not a product.
However, most game companies do not start out as service companies, they start as production companies. The changes that need to happen to move a company from one to the other can be dramatic.
This can cause friction between the company and it's customer, because they aren't speaking the same language. One is speaking the language of production and the other of service.
This is where community takes it's place and can thrive. It is also one of the reasons that sometimes I wake up and can't figure out what my job is. I am trying to attend to disparaging requests that need proper channels defined for them, where none might exist. Other times, the community exists in its own right, with no need for me. The business of making an MMO has not been stream-lined through decades of practice the way that other industries have. It has had service aspects either grow where needed or tacked on.
There is a lot of room to define certain structures that can serve this purpose and the kind of relationship between the players and developers changes upon different needs. While I agree with much of your approach, always reducing things to the bottom-line can eliminate a lot of potential for what this type of service could be. Even the purpose of these boards alone.
Jeez, did I sound like Dr. Phil just now? I swear, sometimes this job feels like marriage counseling. :P[ post edited by Tseric ]
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9082360 | Poster: Tseric at 7/16/2006 1:32:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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This thread is grade A, prime-cut WoW community.
Whether or not your voice echoes through time, I heard it.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9083383 | Poster: Tseric at 7/16/2006 1:38:32 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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Q u o t e:
Triples my incentive to post.
Why is that, exactly?
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9083414 | Poster: Tseric at 7/16/2006 1:39:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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Q u o t e:
why did no one else agree with this?
Did you read the rest of the thread? Or just hit reply after the one post?
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9083418 | Poster: Tseric at 7/16/2006 2:17:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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Q u o t e:
It is far too late in the evening for me to compose a proper response to this, but this thread may well be the best that I have seen in a year and a half of visiting these forums. Definitely desrves to move back up.
You can always edit your post when you're more composed. ;)
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9083604 | Poster: Tseric at 7/19/2006 12:12:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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Q u o t e:
What did Blizzard do with this player-created content? Why, they banned it, of course.
And that's been part of the problem with how WoW has evolved. It seems to me that if the devs didn't come up with something, it has to be banned. Anything outside the extremely tight confines of the game can't be allowed. Consequently, a lot of "fun" stuff has simply been deleted from WoW.
I think the devs should be asking themselves this: when did "fun" and "player-created" become things to suppress, not to encourage?
This assumes that the player base was perfectly happy with every aspect of what you mentioned. In game casinoes were disallowed because of player behavior and request. It was not a decision originated by the devs, but by the players.
Therefore, your last question carries certain assumptions which can't be answered directly.
No, the devs are not against player generated fun.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9129751 | Poster: Tseric at 7/19/2006 12:19:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Progress!/? of WoW and the MMO genre. |
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Q u o t e:
You can argue costs and unreasonable expectations all day, but WoW was a significant portion of Blizzard's parent company's profit over the last fiscal year. That's fact. That's a lot of money not being initially reinvested back into the game.
Ok. Maybe this is true. It is also not the decision of I, nor the devs, nor most of the folks at this company.
Q u o t e:
Your logic's still flawed and if your opinions are truly representative of Blizzard, then there's a larger problem here.
I was merely extending the logic presented by that particular poster to continue thought on the matter and not just stop where it was convenient. It is only one train of thought in the train-yard this thread has become.
Q u o t e:
Oh, one of the MVPs gave me the wowcmfeedback email address before you deleted my post. You've been reported for your condescending attitude. It used to be funny every now and then, but it's inappropriate to use all the time as a customer service representative.
Ok. Wait...do you mean in this thread? If you're making a general statement, then I would have to disagree that I'm like that all the time. If you mean specifically to this thread, I'm not sure I get where you are picking that up. This thread is actually a clear example of how I do my job well.
But, hey, you probably already sent the email, so that's a rather academic point on my part.
The path of least resistance tempts all ramblers.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=9079318&p=#post9129879 |
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