Poster: Vyktus at 3/29/2006 12:12:19 PM PST
Subject: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Hopefully this thread will get some constructive feedback, and maybe even get a response from Blizz, but I just wanted to address a topic that has been discussed in MANY different places.
As most people (especially healers) know, the ability to use SpellStopCasting() is longer available to use via UI mods. This was used by addons such as mana conserve and CT_RaidAssist to automatically abort a heal if the target health deficit is less than the specified amount, thus not letting the healer to waste mana on a target that is at full health. Now I know the first thing everyone is going to say is "well then don't heal a target that is at full health!". well, coming from a healer, I can attest to the fact that this is not as easy as it sounds.
Lets use an example. Lets say I am in a raid and am assigned to healing the MT. Well, anyone that has ever run any end game instance will tell you that one healer (no matter how good) cannot keep the MT alive for an extended period of time. It is in situations like this that 3-4 healers are usually assigned to the MT healing responsibility. Now lets say another priest casts a flash heal on teh MT .5 secs before I do. This means that i have .5 secs from the time his heals lands (and more importantly registers to my UI) to abort my heal or else I just spent ~400 mana worth of overhealing.
So my question to Blizz is this. If a mage is casting a spell that has a cast time (frostbolt for example) like heals do and the target dies before the cast time (not the time the frostbolt is in the air) is up, what happens? I seem to recall getting a message saying "target is dead" and the spell automatically aborts, thus not using mana. You even get the same message when attempting to use an instant cast spell against a dead target. So why is it that a heal will still continue if the target is at full health? There is absolutely no reason for it other than to make the life of a healer more difficult than it already is.
I am suggesting that heals on a target that is at full health get aborted with a message saying "target does not need healing" just as it does now for DPS against a dead target by saying "target is dead" Either build this in to the default UI or allow an addon to do it!!
Now for all those who want to flame, go right ahead. I have heard the L2P response a million times, so I am just about immune to it by now. I am not saying that life is impossible without it, but it certainly makes healing a burden rather than allowing me to enjoy a great game. I suspect if something is not done about this, a large population of healers will reroll another class and the healing community will slowly diminish. Obviously this will affect everyone in the long run.
Thanks for hearing me out.
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Poster: Tseric at 3/29/2006 12:44:56 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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First off, this is the best post I have read regarding this subject today. I will offer a reasoned response to a reasoned post.
While your comparison is an interesting one, you are comparing two different mechanics that shouldn't necessarily work the same way. In your example, casting a healing spell on a dead target works the same as casting a DPS spell on a dead target. The spell is aborted and the mana is unused.
Now, in what you are suggesting I can see one possible outcome that wouldn't be beneficial to game play. Using arbitrary numbers, I will illustrate:
Player A has 55/100 HP
Player B (healer) has spell that heals 50 HP
Player B casts spell on player A
Spell is aborted due to results of overhealing
This is oversimplified, but tries to illustrate a distinction of player decisions and game decisions.
Where possible, we do not want the UI to make game play decisions for players. The philosophy behind these changes being "UI should not be AI". Basically, one of the things that could result from such a suggestion as yours is that the game now has to define when and how much it is appropriate to heal, rather than leaving those decisions to be made by players. In such cases, freedom of game play and the chance to make mistakes is better than having an increasingly complicated UI decide when such and such a spell should be used and how.
Interesting take on it, nonetheless. Your comments will be passed on and considered.[ post edited by Tseric ]
Everybody loves speaking in absolutes.
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Poster: Tseric at 3/29/2006 12:56:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
Tseric, it's important to note that what the OP is asking for is NOT cancellation based on overhealing.
It's cancellation based on healing somebody that is already at max health. If they are even 1hp below max health - like a mob being frostbolted that has 1hp left - the spell should complete as per normal.
The parallel being drawn here is between a mob that is dead and a player that is at full and complete health. Nothing less.
All that is being asked for is that if a healing spell reaches completion but the target is at 100% health, the spell should fail - just like a damage spell fails if the target is at 0% health. It's actually functionally identical to the way a healing potion works - you can't drink them at 100%.
Just thought i'd point that out. Hope you read this :)
Yes. I got it ;)
My comments still stand for the general purpose of discussion, however.
Everybody loves speaking in absolutes.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 2:36:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
Tseric, have you actually played a priest in MC or BWL?
Just curious...
Many members of the Community Team (as well as others on the development and design teams) play healers at the endgame raiding level. You may stop trolling at any time.
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 2:44:58 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
and yet, offensive spells don't land on the ground behind a dead mob, or land on the dead bodies of mobs (heh, to explode them a-la quake 1? i'd personally love to have that as a client-side option.) i'd also love an offensive cast to, for instance, travel past a dead player and hit walls behind them.. but that's not really easy to code given the fact that wow isn't a fps, and that spells aren't targetted in that manner.
AOE offensive spells hit the ground beside dead targets all the time. (Edit: I should add, as do AOE heals, remember.)
Single-target spells need a target upon which to cast, whether damage or healing. Dead players are no longer targets. Have you ever healed a dead player? ;)[ post edited by Coreiel ]
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:00:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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I have an honest (and 100% hypothetical, mind) question for some of you raiders, actually.
In Phase 2 of the Nefarian fight, would you really want this functionality? (Edited: To clarify, I am referring to the suggested functionality of cancelling a healing spell if the cast has finished and the target is at 100%. I realize many other functionalities have been suggested, but this is the one to which I'm currently referring.)
With the array of abilities and items available to restore any mana used by accidentally overhealing, would you really want heals to fail while the Warrior call has been issued and your tank can be taking incredibly hard hits and Shadow Flame within seconds of each other?
To counter the "well, then let us toggle it off" argument that I know will come up: The fact that damage spells cease casting when the target is dead is not something that can be toggled. If you wish to use this argument as an example, please do play by its rules.[ post edited by Coreiel ]
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:06:27 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by 'this functionality' as there were several proposals in this thread. If a heal was canceled at the instant it was going to heal and the player was at 100% life(ie 0 healing would be done anyway) then what would you gain by having that heal go through... even in the nefarian encounter.
A powerful heal-over-time?
A buff from a lucky crit proc?
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:08:19 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
However, if I forget to turn it back on for the whelp rooms, I sure remember to turn it back on once we get started because I'm OOM way too fast if I don't.
Lag aside, perhaps you ought to be paying more attention, then? =/ As Slouken put it so succinctly, "smart players, not smart buttons".[ post edited by Coreiel ]
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:20:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
Either way, it is a bit ancedotal. Just one fight.
With my hypothetical example of "just one fight", I was attempting to enlighten those in the discussion of the impact such a functionality would have on certain fights or in certain situations.
My point, really, is that to be justified in using the "Well, mages' Frostbolts get cancelled if I die!" argument, one has to accept that the suggested functionality they're proposing couldn't be a toggle. This is one of those "have your cake and eat it too" situations.
Of course, another functionality of player death is that the dead player "untargets" - as in, your UI loses target of that player. How many healers would jump on this "built-in mana conserve" idea if it made you lose target of your tank every time he reached 100% health? ;)
Again, let me reiterate - everything I'm discussing here is purely hypothetical. Do not take my joining the discussion to mean that anything I say is in the works - I play the game right alongside you, and this is an adventure in the World of Theorycraft.
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:32:37 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
If heals cancelled when a player is full on health, you could spam heals on a tank all day without even looking at his health. It would auto-cancel or successfully cast automatically based on the tank's health. Your "job" would be 100% automated, you could watch tv while hitting your 4 key (or whatever) over and over again.
I believe this is at the heart of much of the argument here. Let me tell you a story.
I used to raid with a shaman who wore a jumble of cloth, leather, and mail - while he owned his full Tier 1 and several pieces of Tier 2, he never wore it to raid. Every piece he wore had a significant amount of mana/5sec gear.
He also had ManaConserve and EmergencyMonitor set up in such a fashion that he raided by positioning his mouse cursor over a certain part of the screen, and "raid-healed" by alternating left clicks (to select EmergencyMonitor's next target) and mouse-button-3 clicks (rebound to cast Healing Wave) while watching movies. He was never out of mana, and only paid attention to the game between pulls, moving from one place to the next.
Can a single one of you make an argument for how this would be legitimate gameplay?
As Slouken said, we want smart players, not smart buttons.
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:38:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
we could afford to lose focus for a few seconds and count on the Mana Conserve to keep things rolling.
Do you see the problem here?
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:39:12 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
I have a macro that targets the most injured person, according to CTRA, attempts to use Decursive, and then casts Flash of Light rank 6.
Do you see the problem here?
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:40:03 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
The problem is, many of the encounters in this game were designed around mods such as ManaConserve, and Decursive.
This is patently false.
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:40:33 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Q u o t e:
If the smart button can play the game for you just fine, then it's not particularly challenging nor fun, is it?
So the problem with the loss of such "smart buttons" would be...?
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:40:03 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
The problem is, many of the encounters in this game were designed around mods such as ManaConserve, and Decursive.
This is patently false. No encounter was "designed" to have players rely on UI mods.[ post edited by Coreiel ]
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:42:33 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition |
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Metath,
Healing isn't boring or tedious for me, and I've been playing a healer since the day of launch.
Perhaps the mods are what's making it boring. I certainly agree that it'd be boring and tedious to simply press the same button over and over again, letting it do all my work for me.[ post edited by Coreiel ]
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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Poster: Coreiel at 3/29/2006 3:38:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Conserve Proposition *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
we could afford to lose focus for a few seconds and count on the Mana Conserve to keep things rolling.
Do you see the problem here?
But even yet, I have so many miles to go.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7669049&p=#post7672750 |
