Poster: Melriken at 3/20/2006 11:46:39 AM PST
Subject: Debuff Limit: a fallacy |
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A lot of people seem to think that the Debuff limit is in place because it helps balance the game, or because the game can't support an unlimited number of debuffs. Both of these are logical fallacies.
I would like to start by addressing the game balance issue.
Take three cases, case one is solo grinding, case two is small group play (3-5 players) and case three is large group play (20-40 players). Currently there is a 16 debuff limit in all three of these cases. The general argument that it causes balance is that if you let 40 players all cast all thier DoTs on mobs they would cause an enormous amount of damage that they are not currently causing. And while this is the case it is also an argument for removing the limit, not using one. A warlock loses a large portion of his DPS by not using DoTs, a mage loses a much smaller % of his DPS when not using DoTs, a warrior loses even less. So are all three of these classes balanced at the 40 man group level? If they are then how in the world could they be balanced at either of the other two where they CAN use these DoTs, a Warlock must be rediculously over powered in small groups if this is the case. From the other side if they are balanced in small group play they can't possibly be balanced in large group, as the warlock for example would be contributing about half the DPS they would otherwise be contributing to the smaller group, while the warrior sees almost no difference.
From this we can see that the debuff limit can not be used to creat balance in any way shape or form, if it was it would simply cause a group with more mages or warriors for DPS to be over-powered, while a group using warlocks or priests for DPS would be under-powered in a raid environment even when these two groups are perfictly balanced at smaller sizes.
It must then be a technical issue right?
Q u o t e:
Originally posted by Eyonix:
It's partly due to current technical limitation, but as a result, we balance the encounters with the 16 debuff limit in mind. We've been working on the debuff priority system which once implemented should improve the overall effectiveness of using multiple debuff abilities in an encounter. The idea behind this system essentially is for each debuff to have an associated value so that lower valued debuffs (those deemed less powerful/useful) won't negate higher valued debuffs (those deemed more powerful/useful).
Creating the system is time consuming, as we're being careful in placing the values on each debuff ability.
Eyonix even says its partialy due to technical limitations.
While WoW may not currently support an unlimited number of debuffs, it is something that is possible under thier current systems with some code changes. People argue that given an unlimited number of debuffs a raid would unreasonably strain the servers as it placed hundreads of debuffs on a single raid boss. However it shouldn't cause significantly more strain on the server to have one mob with 40 debuffs then it does to have 40 mobs with 1 debuff each, infact the first represents significantly less strain as the rest of the data for the mobs isn't needed. The same could be said of a single boss with 120 debuffs VS 40 mobs with 3 each. Infact while I was leveling my warlock I would routinly pull two or three mobs and place 5 or more debuffs on each all by myself (if I focused on one mob I would place 8 debuffs on it with just my class abilities). If the server can handle the players running around farming Silithus then the server shouldn't have a problem handleing the same players putting a ton of debuffs on a single mob.
The only technical limitation would be poor programing. Either they have it coded in a structure that has on technical limits and simply has a hard coded limit artificialy put in place, or the game has 16 debuff slots alocated for each mob. If its the second then the game is wasting a LOT of memory for debuffs that are not being used, if its the former then simply change the constant limit to something higher (possibly something that varies by mob such that Onyxia can have 300 debuffs on her, while a Defias Pillager can have 16 on it. Or simply remove the code that produces the limit as it causes extra calculations that could be avoided by removing the limit.
People will say wait for the prioritization system, yet that system will not fix the problem outlined above as to why a limit can not create balance, but rather can only serve to destroy any balance that might otherwise be present.
My question then is if the debuff prioritization is viewed as something that will fix the problem, or rather as something that will be a bandage on the problem until a more permanant solution (which will require a buff to a number of mobs through the world, and thus is a larger effort. Possibly being done as part of the expansion where you could accept that low level raid bosses were easier then intended, while then current end game bosses were correctly balanced.) could be developed?
I look forward to comments from my fellow players, and any other discussion that may come of this.
Edit: quote is not spelled qoute... doh[ post edited by Melriken ]
http://wowdamage.shorturl.com/ <-all about +damage
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7567851&p=#post7567851 | | | Poster: Eyonix at 3/20/2006 4:38:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: Debuff Limit: a fallacy |
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Q u o t e:
While WoW may not currently support an unlimited number of debuffs, it is something that is possible under thier current systems with some code changes. People argue that given an unlimited number of debuffs a raid would unreasonably strain the servers as it placed hundreads of debuffs on a single raid boss. However it shouldn't cause significantly more strain on the server to have one mob with 40 debuffs then it does to have 40 mobs with 1 debuff each, infact the first represents significantly less strain as the rest of the data for the mobs isn't needed. The same could be said of a single boss with 120 debuffs VS 40 mobs with 3 each. Infact while I was leveling my warlock I would routinly pull two or three mobs and place 5 or more debuffs on each all by myself (if I focused on one mob I would place 8 debuffs on it with just my class abilities). If the server can handle the players running around farming Silithus then the server shouldn't have a problem handleing the same players putting a ton of debuffs on a single mob.
Your entire post could've pretty much been summed up in this one paragraph, Melriken. World of Warcraft doesn't currently support an unlimited number of debuffs, but such is something that could be possible through change to our code. However, such code change would take valuable programmer time, which is best used elsewhere for the time being.
The limit in place has nothing to do with "server strain", and very little to do with actual game balance.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7567851&p=#post7571755 | Poster: Eyonix at 3/20/2006 4:49:44 PM PST
Subject: Re: Debuff Limit: a fallacy |
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Q u o t e:
This doesn't make any sense, Eyonix.
One of you blues has said elsewhere that the reason the debuff priority system has been delayed is that it takes a lot of developer time to work out the debuff priorities for all the debuffs out there. Why not just use this time to remove the debuff limit?
We're not talking about the debuff priority system, but rather the debuff limit itself. The priority system which will affect debuffs is in development as I've stated in many other posts, even as recent as a week ago.[ post edited by Eyonix ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7567851&p=#post7571884 | Poster: Eyonix at 3/20/2006 4:58:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Debuff Limit: a fallacy |
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Q u o t e:
But why spend dev time on the debuff priority system when you can spend the same dev time on removing the debuff limit instead, which would make a debuff priority system not needed? That's my point.
There would be much more involved with increasing the limit than assigning each debuff a value, and to be honest, we'd still end up having to create a priority system unless the debuff limitation were altogether removed - which certainly wouldn't be our goal. Beyond this, the designers are working on the priority system, not the programmers, who'd be needed to make changes to the current limitation.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7567851&p=#post7571975 | Poster: Eyonix at 3/20/2006 5:03:52 PM PST
Subject: Re: Debuff Limit: a fallacy |
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Q u o t e:
Why should there be a limit? If you can cast the spells, they should land. If you can perform the rend, sunder, gouge, kidney shot, blind, etc. why should it not take effect?
A technical limitation is the *only* counter-argument. If so, that's understandable (somewhat). As far as "balance", it's hogwash - the effects are in the game for a reason. If you don't like debuffs, don't let us use them at all!
Alright, henceforth Ellerton, you can no longer use debuffs.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7567851&p=#post7572023 | Poster: Eyonix at 3/20/2006 5:42:21 PM PST
Subject: Re: Debuff Limit: a fallacy |
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Q u o t e:
Wow. I (and many other warlocks, I assume) have wondered why a debuff limit was there in the first place. The only reason that really made sense was that it was somehow imbalanced to let us stack all our dots in raid encounters.
Now that we know that's false, why on earth didn't blizzard only DOUBLE the debuff limit (8->16) instead of raising it much much higher to allow, say, 4 or 5 warlocks in a raid to stack their dots?
UI concerns?? Raid balance is trumped by UI concerns?
Thats just amazing to me.
Please reread my statements. Not once have I mentioned our UI in any capacity.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=7567851&p=#post7572481 |
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