Poster: Regenesis at 12/22/2005 11:05:34 AM PST
Subject: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis |
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In a 5-man group (at level 60), you need:
1. tank
suitable class: warrior
paladins, druids, and shamans are off-tanks. no class can match the tanking ability of warriors.
2. healer
suitable class: priest, druid
you can either get a priest to heal or a druid. of course; with a druid u'd need a secondary healer such as shaman and paladin if the druid is not restoration specced.
3. wipe recovery personnel
suitable class: shaman, warlock, druid
shaman can ankh, warlock can soulstone, druid can combat rez (and the priest doesn't have to click on accept asap if a wipe is definite). I suppose paladin can be a secondary rezzer if the party doesn't wipe, and especially when the main healer is a druid.
4. ranged dps
suitable class: warlock, mage, hunter
obviously....
5. melee dps
suitable class: warrior, rogue, shaman
all except warrior; melee dps is very optional since there are many mobs that kick melee's ass; for example maraudon blob, batrider....etc. paladin can kind of dps....
6. AOE
suitable class: mage, warlock
hunter, shaman, paladin and warrior have limited ability in AOE.
7. debuff curer:
magic: paladin, priest, shaman
disease: priest
poison: shaman, druid
curse: druid, mage
8. buffer: mage, priest, druid, shaman, paladin, warlock
9. In-combat crowd controller:
undead: priest
beast: mage, druid
demon: warlock
elemental: warlock
humanoid: mage, priest (mind control)
sap is an "out of combat" CC. btw, if the rogue doesn't have imp sap, then he's shouldn't be sapping unless he likes repair bills big.
10. lockpicking: rogue
this is a very optional job if there's a blacksmith or engineer; especially when ppl already have their keys.
Summary
from this, we can see that rogues have very limited use. discuss.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6352797 | | | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 12:22:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis |
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Q u o t e:
from your summary, we can see that rogues have very limited use. discuss.
I have extensive experience grouping in instances, from RageFire Chasm to Blackwing Lair. The dps that a good rogue brings to the table is enough to make them desirable for me in a number of situations. As a Priest, I certainly appreciate their ability to do damage and remain low maintenance. I notice the rate at which my raid group progresses through Blackwing Lair, Molten Core and Zul'Gurub substantially with each Rogues present.
Your summary also fails to list all strengths and benefits each class possesses, nor does it adequately list each weakness which is as important if you're attempting to determine the desirability of a given class in a group.
With that being said, it's my belief that too much emphasis is placed on the class itself when attempting to determine group viability. For instance if I want dps in my party, and I'm concerned with maximum efficiency, do I chose a Rogue or a Hunter?
Simple, I personally choose the better of the two players.
Such is known to me due to my past experiences grouping with other players with varied skill level. Part of playing a game of this nature involves interacting with other players, and making determinations as to who is worth grouping with and who is not, beyond judging only their class and talent-build. I've run instances with extremely unconventional party types without wiping, and in a number of cases - without single incident deaths.
I believe strongly this was because I was grouped with players who were capable of taking maximum advantage of their class skills, abilities, made excellent use of standard game mechanics, understood the environment and knew how to work well in a group.
I'd rather group with the Rogue equipped with the level 53 blue dagger that knows how to maximize his damage output and understands each of his abilities than group with the Rogue equipped with the Perdition's Blade mashing on only two keys.
You can choose to pigeon-hole a class all you want, but in the end, you might end up missing out on meeting the Warlock capable of out damaging anyone else in your party or the Mage that never needs a heal..
In short, you should attempt to allow your efforts as a player define your role in a group, not your class.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6354381 | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 12:39:19 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis |
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Q u o t e:
Actually its called Vanilla flavored generic response to legitimite class complaints, but meh.
You can accuse my response of being generic, but the fact remains, it details my honest opinion as one that has played this game since the first day of our internal alpha. I have three maxed out character on both Horde and Alliance, and have been through every dungeon in this game at least twenty-times, and in some cases hundreds. I've done dozens upon dozens of pick-up runs, groups with friends and guild runs with a variety of guilds.
You're free to disagree with me here, however I stand strongly behind my assessment.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6354680 | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 12:48:16 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis |
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Q u o t e:
You stand strongly behind your assessment that class viability issues should best be solved by evaluating the personalities and playing skill of the controlling human?
I hope not.
I can never offer you satisfying messaging if you chose to twist my words. My message isn't stating that "class viability issues are best solved by evaluating personalities and play skill of the controlling human", nor was this message designed to address specific class viability issues.
I'm addressing the original poster's summary, which wasn't detailed enough to be conclusive of any given player's role. My point was in stating that beyond the number of strengths and weakness which weren't included in the summary, a very important focus is often lost when defining an individual's viability in a group.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6354850 | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 2:04:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis |
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Q u o t e:
EYONIX----
EYONIX
Bull
Most aren't in big guilds such as yourself where they are filling in spots with people they know.
Classes like 60 Hunter (the worse for being group-friendly as they have no ability that an extra warrior couldn't do and they don't even have lockpicking), second the rogue....then every one else is blessed with multiple abilities desired and/or needed by any group.
Hell, hunters don't even have a SINGLE friend-making ability like rezs, heals, buffs, lockpicking, summoning players, porting players, healthstones, soulstones, summoned water and food, ....like every other class has 1 to 4 of.
There really is an amazing disparity in endgame PvE roles....in group desirablity....thus in getting good groups (and the guys on the bottem in this food chain take anything they can get as opposed to warriors and priests picking and choosing), ......and this affects everything.
..but you would rather spout inanities about "it's the player, not the class" instead of trying to help get things balanced.
Bull, and shame on you.
I've been in a number of guilds and have characters across three realms and on both factions. Also, I left my Shaman unguilded and collected my entire Elements set (except the helmet - Gandling hates me), and played on a realm with in which you'd see commonly see messages such as "STRATH LFM NEED HEALER - FULL ON SHAMMY PST").
My thoughts on the matter comes from experience beyond being in a large raiding guild.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6355936 | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 2:04:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
EYONIX----
EYONIX
Bull
Most aren't in big guilds such as yourself where they are filling in spots with people they know.
Classes like 60 Hunter (the worse for being group-friendly as they have no ability that an extra warrior couldn't do and they don't even have lockpicking), second the rogue....then every one else is blessed with multiple abilities desired and/or needed by any group.
Hell, hunters don't even have a SINGLE friend-making ability like rezs, heals, buffs, lockpicking, summoning players, porting players, healthstones, soulstones, summoned water and food, ....like every other class has 1 to 4 of.
There really is an amazing disparity in endgame PvE roles....in group desirablity....thus in getting good groups (and the guys on the bottem in this food chain take anything they can get as opposed to warriors and priests picking and choosing), ......and this affects everything.
..but you would rather spout inanities about "it's the player, not the class" instead of trying to help get things balanced.
Bull, and shame on you.
I've been in a number of guilds and have characters across three realms and on both factions. Also, I left my Shaman unguilded and collected my entire Elements set (except the helmet - Gandling hates me), and played on a realm in which you'd commonly see messages such as "STRATH LFM NEED HEALER - FULL ON SHAMMY PST").
My thoughts on the matter comes from experience beyond being in a large raiding guild.[ post edited by Eyonix ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6355936 | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 12:22:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
from your summary, we can see that rogues have very limited use. discuss.
I have extensive experience grouping in instances, from RageFire Chasm to Blackwing Lair. The dps that a good rogue brings to the table is enough to make them desirable for me in a number of situations. As a Priest, I certainly appreciate their ability to do damage and remain low maintenance. I notice the rate at which my raid group progresses through Blackwing Lair, Molten Core and Zul'Gurub increases substantially with each Rogues present.
Your summary also fails to list all strengths and benefits each class possesses, nor does it adequately list each weakness which is as important if you're attempting to determine the desirability of a given class in a group.
With that being said, it's my belief that too much emphasis is placed on the class itself when attempting to determine group viability. For instance if I want dps in my party, and I'm concerned with maximum efficiency, do I chose a Rogue or a Hunter?
Simple, I personally choose the better of the two players.
Such is known to me due to my past experiences grouping with other players with varied skill level. Part of playing a game of this nature involves interacting with other players, and making determinations as to who is worth grouping with and who is not, beyond judging only their class and talent-build. I've run instances with extremely unconventional party types without wiping, and in a number of cases - without single incident deaths.
I believe strongly this was because I was grouped with players who were capable of taking maximum advantage of their class skills, abilities, made excellent use of standard game mechanics, understood the environment and knew how to work well in a group.
I'd rather group with the Rogue equipped with the level 53 blue dagger that knows how to maximize his damage output and understands each of his abilities than group with the Rogue equipped with the Perdition's Blade mashing on only two keys.
You can choose to pigeon-hole a class all you want, but in the end, you might end up missing out on meeting the Warlock capable of out damaging anyone else in your party or the Mage that never needs a heal..
In short, you should attempt to allow your efforts as a player define your role in a group, not your class.[ post edited by Eyonix ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6354381 | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 5:50:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis |
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Q u o t e:
Again I say.... Bull
I have never heard "looking for 60 Hunter" for a group or a special service. ....all other classes hear their class called out regularly for groups or abilities....the CLASS is called out, not a person....there lies the inequity.
Bull ;)
While I agree that certain classes will always be in larger demand for running group instances (partly due to the way many players pigeon-hole each class in this game, as some comments in this thread even reveal), I frequently see groups searching for Hunters.[ post edited by Eyonix ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6358916 | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 12:48:16 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
You stand strongly behind your assessment that class viability issues should best be solved by evaluating the personalities and playing skill of the controlling human?
I hope not.
I can never offer you satisfying messaging if you chose to twist my words. My message isn't stating that "class viability issues are best solved by evaluating personalities and play skill of the controlling human", nor was this message designed to address specific class viability issues.
I'm addressing the original poster's summary, which wasn't detailed enough to be conclusive of any given player's role. My point was in stating that beyond the number of strengths and weakness which weren't included in the summary, a very important focus is often lost when defining an individual's viability in a group.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6354850 | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 2:04:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
EYONIX----
EYONIX
Bull
Most aren't in big guilds such as yourself where they are filling in spots with people they know.
Classes like 60 Hunter (the worse for being group-friendly as they have no ability that an extra warrior couldn't do and they don't even have lockpicking), second the rogue....then every one else is blessed with multiple abilities desired and/or needed by any group.
Hell, hunters don't even have a SINGLE friend-making ability like rezs, heals, buffs, lockpicking, summoning players, porting players, healthstones, soulstones, summoned water and food, ....like every other class has 1 to 4 of.
There really is an amazing disparity in endgame PvE roles....in group desirablity....thus in getting good groups (and the guys on the bottem in this food chain take anything they can get as opposed to warriors and priests picking and choosing), ......and this affects everything.
..but you would rather spout inanities about "it's the player, not the class" instead of trying to help get things balanced.
Bull, and shame on you.
I've been in a number of guilds and have characters across three realms and on both factions. Also, I left my Shaman unguilded and collected my entire Elements set (except the helmet - Gandling hates me), and played on a realm in which you'd commonly see messages such as "STRATH LFM NEED HEALER - FULL ON SHAMMY PST").
My thoughts on the matter comes from experience beyond being in a large raiding guild.[ post edited by Eyonix ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6355936 | Poster: Eyonix at 12/22/2005 5:50:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: What makes up a good 5-man group analysis *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Again I say.... Bull
I have never heard "looking for 60 Hunter" for a group or a special service. ....all other classes hear their class called out regularly for groups or abilities....the CLASS is called out, not a person....there lies the inequity.
Bull ;)
While I agree that certain classes will always be in larger demand for running group instances (partly due to the way many players pigeon-hole each class in this game, as some comments in this thread even reveal), I frequently see groups searching for Hunters.[ post edited by Eyonix ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6352797&p=#post6358916 |
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