Poster: Grassmonger at 12/6/2005 10:05:20 AM PST
Subject: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Asherons' Call did, so can blizzard.
Alchemist make the dies
Tailors apply to cloth armor
Leather Workers to leather
etc etc.
Effect. dyes the primary color of a piece of armor another color
and while your at it, how about finding another user for mooncloth ... as in .. hmm 8,000hp instant bandages? thats worth 10-15g :)
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6124136 |
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Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 10:28:25 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Dyes sound so simple, don't they?
However, they're very hard to get right.
Yes, while a near-herculean task at this point, the "easiest" way to implement this would be to shift all armor to a greyscale and allow application of a single color. Except... doing that causes either dark colors to look washed out (such as red appearing dingy pink) or light colors to look dim and dirty. Pure white? Pure black? Can't happen, not without almost completely removing the detail on the texture. All the multicolored bits would be gone. And that's something we don't want to do; the textures of the game provide much of the liveliness in the art style of the game.
If we want to do dyes right, it's a far greater task that would require special attention to each and every piece of armor in the game, creating maps to define where the dye would and would not apply, etc. in addition to making sure the colors would be the vibrant and strong shades we've come to know from Warcraft. It's not a simple thing to implement by any means, and there are no plans to do so at this time.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6124701 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 10:32:26 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
Like the multiple shades of purples/pink for rogue armour and bunny face on pink mage dress.(yes a dress !!!) Or the great looking textures of the cenarion suit.
sorry could not resist. Just don`t open doors wide open like that :D
Still liek you Cay ;)
Hey, I used purple for my army all the time in Warcraft 3!
Don't knock the purple. :|
EDIT: Before people take me to task -- this is not saying that your dislike of Dragonstalker's isn't known to the artists -- they know very well. My personal preference never factors into giving your feedback to the developers.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6124801 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:13:59 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Folks... I understand that there are games that have done a dye system decently. Those games had their textures and their graphics engine designed for it from the ground up. World of Warcraft was not. To implement a dye system would require us to go back and revisit the thousands upon thousands of unique armor textures in the game and customize them for this purpose -- a great deal, if we wanted to make them look good rather than a simple tint.
(Tints in general look horrid more than good in these games. You lose so much armor detail in using them, and unless you're the type of person that really likes slate blue, you probably won't be happy with the results.)
Some have suggested outright creating the other textures required to dye something X shade, thus eliminating the issue with tints... okay, but not only would that take some time (not long in Photoshop for one texture, sure, but multiply that task by the thousands...) but, as textures are client-side, it would increase the disk space taken up by World of Warcraft significantly. Art assets aren't insignificant in that sense, even when compressed.
Lastly... honestly, it's not something we feel is necessary at this time. Each piece of art is colored and textured the way it is for a reason, and to lose that would be to lose the uniqueness of quite a few pieces.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6125934 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:17:44 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
Because everyone in this game looks like a carbon copy of each other. DAOC was out 3-4 years ago and did a good job with dyes.
Its simple, bleach the armor first so it loses all its color, then apply color you want.
No, actually, it's not that simple.
If you "bleach" it entirely, you have only line, no shade, and tints don't stick at all.
If you "bleach" it almost entirely, light colors look okay, but black becomes light grey, and the rest of your palette is entirely pastel.
If you "bleach" it to a greyscale, midtone colors look fine, but white and light colors are dingy and dark colors are still washed out.
If you "bleach" it to a darker grey, white becomes... darker grey, and light colors look like they've been dragged through filthy water.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126030 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:24:58 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
Cay, here.. please... then give them this:
http://www.r-project.org/screenshots/color-wheel.jpg
The artists do understand their colors; I am sorry if your tastes differ. ;)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126219 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:25:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
Sorry I just assumed Blizzard was smart and had a base texture of everything so they wouldn't have to recolor everytime they wanted to recycle graphics. Bleach = going back to base texture.
No, that's part of what I explained. The system wasn't originally designed for dyes, and even then, the "base texture" only works for a select set of colors: light, midtones, or darks. Not all.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126243 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:27:17 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
So let us chose the skins applied to our armor from among the existing texure maps. Imagine how much nicer the rogue in the suit I listed above would look if he could make that suit look like a full suit of living armor, or Shadowcraft or even mighty armor. Let us at least opt not to look like walking trash heaps.
You've repeated yourself several times, Kaganfindel. I read you the first time. I don't respond to everything on this forum, I hope you realize, and there is a spamming clause in the policy. ;)
That won't be happening. Again, as I said, that would take away a great deal of the uniqueness of individual pieces of armor.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126284 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:33:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
It can't be done.......100s of people and millions of dollars wouldn't change the outcome....it's just not possible.....It can't be done....
There is no way this can happen....Change textures in the game? Are you people NUTS??!?!? That's unpossible!!
It's not able to be worked out. Just like the linked auction houses, it is just too hard to sort out....
Never said linked auction houses were impossible; I've always maintained that there were technical hurdles to be overcome and it wasn't feasible at the time, but we did want to implement them at some point.
Now, if you translated that to mean that it was impossible, well, the fault doesn't lie with me. ;)
I didn't say dyes were impossible either. I said it's difficult to get right and we have no plans on implementing such a system at this time.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126441 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:35:30 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
Hate to disagree with you, Caydiem, but hue shifting is no herculean feat. It isn't even monumental. You give people lighten darken control and a hue shifter and they can shift hues away...
It preserves the details and the color variations of the different parts of each armor piece... it just allows people to design their own color scheme.
Come on now, as a digital artist, you know that is not hard to implement.
It's certainly less hard if the system is designed from the ground up with such a dye system planned.
Ours wasn't, and yes, it would be difficult to go back and set up the system both in game and reconfigure the thousands of current armor assets to work this way. :P
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126478 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:38:45 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
Seriously, if you have no experience in Texturing, modeling ect please dont comment here, because the responses you give only show how little you understand.
Are you referring to me or the other players, out of curiosity? ;)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126559 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:41:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
"At home in the shadows and skilled at disappearing from sight, the Rogues of Azeroth are most comfortable when acting in the background. Twisting events to their favor, striking only when advantage is greatest: this is where a Rogue excels. With their cunning tricks, physical abilities, and mastery of concealment and disguise, Rogues have no trouble finding employment as thieves, cutthroats, spies, and assassins."
The first color that springs to mind when I read that is bright pink, too! Can I design armor for you? I've got a great idea for a bright yellow-green with magenta highlights stealth suit! Here's a tip for your hiring department - if the school's address can be found on a matchbook, it's probably not as prestigious an academy as the applicant makes it out to be...
-Herakles
The bright pink has been changed to grey due to player feedback!
*gasp!*
(And yes, I'm serious. I've posted about the change a few times.)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126625 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:51:15 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
What about the Druid armor?
I personally think the fact that the guy figured he could get away with a pink rogue epic armor says a lot.
It's no longer bright pink and teal.. but the same basic shades were kept. It's more... hm, "bronze" looking now, I suppose.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126873 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:58:18 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion |
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Q u o t e:
/arms gettting tierd...
=/
please.. Dragonstalker colors??? CAY???
There's another thread on the front page of this forum that explains that they're being looked into.
I don't know if they're going to change.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6127052 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 10:28:25 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Dyes sound so simple, don't they?
However, they're very hard to get right.
Yes, while a near-herculean task at this point, the "easiest" way to implement this would be to shift all armor to a greyscale and allow application of a single color. Except... doing that causes either dark colors to look washed out (such as red appearing dingy pink) or light colors to look dim and dirty. Pure white? Pure black? Can't happen, not without almost completely removing the detail on the texture. All the multicolored bits would be gone. And that's something we don't want to do; the textures of the game provide much of the liveliness in the art style of the game.
If we want to do dyes right, it's a far greater task that would require special attention to each and every piece of armor in the game, creating maps to define where the dye would and would not apply, etc. in addition to making sure the colors would be the vibrant and strong shades we've come to know from Warcraft. It's not a simple thing to implement by any means, and there are no plans to do so at this time.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6124701 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 10:32:26 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Like the multiple shades of purples/pink for rogue armour and bunny face on pink mage dress.(yes a dress !!!) Or the great looking textures of the cenarion suit.
sorry could not resist. Just don`t open doors wide open like that :D
Still liek you Cay ;)
Hey, I used purple for my army all the time in Warcraft 3!
Don't knock the purple. :|
EDIT: Before people take me to task -- this is not saying that your dislike of Dragonstalker's isn't known to the artists -- they know very well. My personal preference never factors into giving your feedback to the developers.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6124801 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:13:59 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Folks... I understand that there are games that have done a dye system decently. Those games had their textures and their graphics engine designed for it from the ground up. World of Warcraft was not. To implement a dye system would require us to go back and revisit the thousands upon thousands of unique armor textures in the game and customize them for this purpose -- a great deal, if we wanted to make them look good rather than a simple tint.
(Tints in general look horrid more than good in these games. You lose so much armor detail in using them, and unless you're the type of person that really likes slate blue, you probably won't be happy with the results.)
Some have suggested outright creating the other textures required to dye something X shade, thus eliminating the issue with tints... okay, but not only would that take some time (not long in Photoshop for one texture, sure, but multiply that task by the thousands...) but, as textures are client-side, it would increase the disk space taken up by World of Warcraft significantly. Art assets aren't insignificant in that sense, even when compressed.
Lastly... honestly, it's not something we feel is necessary at this time. Each piece of art is colored and textured the way it is for a reason, and to lose that would be to lose the uniqueness of quite a few pieces.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6125934 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:17:44 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Because everyone in this game looks like a carbon copy of each other. DAOC was out 3-4 years ago and did a good job with dyes.
Its simple, bleach the armor first so it loses all its color, then apply color you want.
No, actually, it's not that simple.
If you "bleach" it entirely, you have only line, no shade, and tints don't stick at all.
If you "bleach" it almost entirely, light colors look okay, but black becomes light grey, and the rest of your palette is entirely pastel.
If you "bleach" it to a greyscale, midtone colors look fine, but white and light colors are dingy and dark colors are still washed out.
If you "bleach" it to a darker grey, white becomes... darker grey, and light colors look like they've been dragged through filthy water.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126030 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:24:58 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Cay, here.. please... then give them this:
http://www.r-project.org/screenshots/color-wheel.jpg
The artists do understand their colors; I am sorry if your tastes differ. ;)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126219 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:25:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Sorry I just assumed Blizzard was smart and had a base texture of everything so they wouldn't have to recolor everytime they wanted to recycle graphics. Bleach = going back to base texture.
No, that's part of what I explained. The system wasn't originally designed for dyes, and even then, the "base texture" only works for a select set of colors: light, midtones, or darks. Not all.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126243 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:27:17 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
So let us chose the skins applied to our armor from among the existing texure maps. Imagine how much nicer the rogue in the suit I listed above would look if he could make that suit look like a full suit of living armor, or Shadowcraft or even mighty armor. Let us at least opt not to look like walking trash heaps.
You've repeated yourself several times, Kaganfindel. I read you the first time. I don't respond to everything on this forum, I hope you realize, and there is a spamming clause in the policy. ;)
That won't be happening. Again, as I said, that would take away a great deal of the uniqueness of individual pieces of armor.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126284 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:33:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
It can't be done.......100s of people and millions of dollars wouldn't change the outcome....it's just not possible.....It can't be done....
There is no way this can happen....Change textures in the game? Are you people NUTS??!?!? That's unpossible!!
It's not able to be worked out. Just like the linked auction houses, it is just too hard to sort out....
Never said linked auction houses were impossible; I've always maintained that there were technical hurdles to be overcome and it wasn't feasible at the time, but we did want to implement them at some point.
Now, if you translated that to mean that it was impossible, well, the fault doesn't lie with me. ;)
I didn't say dyes were impossible either. I said it's difficult to get right and we have no plans on implementing such a system at this time.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126441 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:35:30 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Hate to disagree with you, Caydiem, but hue shifting is no herculean feat. It isn't even monumental. You give people lighten darken control and a hue shifter and they can shift hues away...
It preserves the details and the color variations of the different parts of each armor piece... it just allows people to design their own color scheme.
Come on now, as a digital artist, you know that is not hard to implement.
It's certainly less hard if the system is designed from the ground up with such a dye system planned.
Ours wasn't, and yes, it would be difficult to go back and set up the system both in game and reconfigure the thousands of current armor assets to work this way. :P
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126478 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:38:45 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Seriously, if you have no experience in Texturing, modeling ect please dont comment here, because the responses you give only show how little you understand.
Are you referring to me or the other players, out of curiosity? ;)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126559 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:41:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
"At home in the shadows and skilled at disappearing from sight, the Rogues of Azeroth are most comfortable when acting in the background. Twisting events to their favor, striking only when advantage is greatest: this is where a Rogue excels. With their cunning tricks, physical abilities, and mastery of concealment and disguise, Rogues have no trouble finding employment as thieves, cutthroats, spies, and assassins."
The first color that springs to mind when I read that is bright pink, too! Can I design armor for you? I've got a great idea for a bright yellow-green with magenta highlights stealth suit! Here's a tip for your hiring department - if the school's address can be found on a matchbook, it's probably not as prestigious an academy as the applicant makes it out to be...
-Herakles
The bright pink has been changed to grey due to player feedback!
*gasp!*
(And yes, I'm serious. I've posted about the change a few times.)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126625 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:51:15 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
What about the Druid armor?
I personally think the fact that the guy figured he could get away with a pink rogue epic armor says a lot.
It's no longer bright pink and teal.. but the same basic shades were kept. It's more... hm, "bronze" looking now, I suppose.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6126873 |
Poster: Caydiem at 12/6/2005 11:58:18 AM PST
Subject: Re: Dyes - Ending the Armor Discussion *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
/arms gettting tierd...
=/
please.. Dragonstalker colors??? CAY???
There's another thread on the front page of this forum that explains that they're being looked into.
I don't know if they're going to change.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6124136&p=#post6127052 |
