Poster: Crime at 12/4/2005 11:35:00 AM PST
Subject: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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This is from the paladin forum:
Q u o t e:
Not necessarily role, but philosophy behind the changes.
Now, before you folks start in about wanting to know your role, I want to explain what a trap that sort of question happens to be, and the reason behind us not answering that question often, if at all.
Each class has a role described on the website. This is not geared toward the experienced player, but rather the new player who wants to know what each class is about at its core. Mages, as much as they complain about summoning food and water, are about damage at the core, for example. This allows someone who is unfamiliar with the game to get a handle on all the classes and pick the class they're most interested in.
Now, the veteran players tend to be after a role for a different reason. It can be several things, from being pigeonholed by their guild to a particular role or a personal belief that their class should be sought after to do X. They want to hear that they're the best at something -- either to prove to themselves or others that such is officially the case, or to argue with us that they are not, in fact, the best at X, and they should be.
The simple truth is that World of Warcraft isn't designed to have one person at the top of DPS or healing. It's all situational. Our hybrid class (Druids) and hybrid-like classes (Shaman, Paladin) naturally have a harder time finding their niche, but understand that it's largely player-defined. Find what works best for you. Odds are we won't be giving huge dissertations on class role, as that only serves to pigeonhole people further.
Now, on another post in the General forum, a rogue was complaining about how rogues have a lack of roles in raids, and you responded that rogues do indeed have a role in raiding, but it's an extremely narrow and specific role. No, I am unable to give the exact quote because it is outdated and no longer in the forums history. The point is, anyone who's leveled a rogue past 20 knows that role is DPS. I am asking if Blizzard is being hypocritical because if a class is to have a single, solitary role in raids, it would logically follow that the class is going to be the absolute king of what his role is, in the rogue's case, DPS. I mean, come on, DPS is listed among two other things on the rogue class's page - stealth and lockpicking. Since there are no locked doors to speak of in raiding instances and stealth pretty much is null and void since most mobs can see through stealth from long range, that leaves DPS as the rogue's single, solitary role.
If no class is "designed to have one person at the top of DPS or healing," then what is the point of having a class that is a one trick pony if you've given at least 3 other classes the ability to do that trick and then a few more? Over the past several months, we've had countless trolls plaguing our boards showing "proof" that we are not needed in raids and I am inclined to believe them, especially given your recent statements about no class having a defined role, yet then claiming rogues are good for one thing, and one thing only in raids.
And if that "one thing" you were referring to is NOT DPS, then kindly enlighten us all as to what the developer's grand intention for rogues in PvE raids is. I'm tired of community managers talking out of both sides of their mouths in this matter, especially in regards to what the crap rogues are supposed to do in raids and why the hell a raid should pick them over the 3 or so other classes that can compete with them in terms of DPS.
**This was taken from the Rogue forums a post made by "Dude" I really felt it needed to be on the General forum, link is here http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-rogue&t=773640&p=1&tmp=1#post773640
http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?154075
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6096887 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 12:05:57 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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I don't see the word "raid" in that post at all, and thus I fail to see how I'm being hypocritical. While there are some people who do nothing but raid, there is more to this game than raiding. Even then, as an example, my Rogue does crowd control in Zul'Gurub -- and yes, alongside Mages and Druids.
When designing encounters and PvP areas, they strongly consider every class's abilities -- Rogues included. Lockpicking is an asset in Dire Maul, as an example, if you're doing a tribute run; don't want to kill a guard to get the door key? Grab a Rogue as one of your five and you won't have that problem. Need someone to grab Father Flame in UBRS? Get a Rogue who knows what he's doing and you won't have to clear any eggs. (Yes, I know these aren't "endgame", but they're high-level areas that utilize Rogue abilities.) It's considered all the time, but at the same time, you don't want to completely cripple a group if they don't have a Rogue... which is what would happen for a vast majority of potential stealth-related tasks.
You are also comparing two different-styled classes. Paladins are a "hybrid-like" class, and their talent trees emphasize some fairly different ability sets. Rogues are a more specialized class, as seen in their talents, which are focused on dealing damage in different ways.
I suppose I'm asking... what would you want to be doing instead of stabbing/bashing something to death as a Rogue? Not in addition to, mind, but instead. No, Rogues don't have much wiggling room in terms of DPS; it's a very specialized class. The complaints of class role primarily come from the classes designed with more versatility, wishing to do something else instead of the role in which they're supposedly forced by their peers. Therefore, if you don't want your role to be DPS, what do you want it to be?
I am not going to claim one class is designed to be "king of DPS" on these forums. However much one class would be vindicated, the other DPS-oriented classes would throw a fit, and the honest truth is that it's all situational.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6097195 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 12:28:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
Rogues are -required- for the Broodlord Lashlayer section of Blackwing lair which is endgame raid conetent. Blizzard also noted they were going to be putting similar objectives in game in the future aswell.
:)
I forgot about that one. (I haven't been able to go to BWL of late due to schedule conflicts, alas.) As I've said, Rogue abilities outside of DPS are considered and utilized when possible, but you can't make every single encounter require stealth or lockpicking skill to complete.
Now, for the other fellow...
Rogues are a DPS class among other DPS classes. They shine in certain situations. Backstab damage on Vaelastrasz? Yes please. On Ragnaros, a line of Rogues that know what they're doing can be devastating and beat him down like no tomorrow. Those of you who claim Rogues aren't "needed" in end-game raids -- how many of your raids start up with no Rogues, hm? Probably none, I'd imagine. Clearly they're providing an asset if they're allowed along, and it isn't merely to sweep up loot.
Are you seeking the critical level of a Warrior, perhaps? I've seen Onyxia beaten with no Warriors at all. I've seen Zul'Gurub raids run splendidly with no Priests. Are Warriors highly desired for what they can do? Yes. Are Priests? You bet. Are Rogues? Yes. All class abilities are useful in end-game raids. I'm sorry if you want to be sought after as a Warrior is -- that probably won't be happening. But kindly don't tell me that Rogues are useless in the endgame, because that simply isn't true.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6097409 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 12:30:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
No there's not. There used to be, then you released 6 new 40 man world bosses and 4 new raid instances.
Park the Casual vs. Hardcore debate outside this thread, please. That's not what this is about.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6097432 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 12:35:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
Honestly, the only reason it's not true is because the momment I say "LFM for <insert instance here>" the first three tells I get are rogues, hunters, or some combination of both. Let me tell you.. if I were trying to do a tribute run and by some miracle didn't have a rogue along (incidently my favorite duo partner is a little pocket rogue I know, I love having her around as much as she enjoys a priest in her pockey), I would hold the party incomplete at 4 people untill I got a rogue.
I'd likely do the same in scarlet side stratholme as well, since a sap and a sheep in the cathedral is amazingly nice, but two DPS cloth classes is a bit too much to watch after at once while trying to prevent as many deaths as possible.
This is very true. The population of Rogues and Hunters is something we can't exactly "fix", but is a large part of the perception that Rogues/Hunters aren't wanted in groups. Thanks, Dorenal. :)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6097470 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 12:39:33 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
LFM, full on rogues
=(
NO
rogues are always just space filler it seems, we got room for a 3rd rogue for strat or scholo, sigh, yeah i guess, we have to get to 10
I think rogues are great, and i don't want them significantly changed, but i don't think you are correct with that statement...
Yes, they are.
Note your statement: "Full on Rogues". That means there are already Rogues in the party, and thus they're being utilized. Too many of any one specialized class can cause issues in a party. Seems to me that they are in fact needed and are being utilized -- there are just a lot of them. :P
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6097509 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 12:43:59 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
What I find interesting, is that as a raiding guild matures, the majority of dps stops being from rogues, and moves to Warlocks (Yes, warlocks, you do mad damage, stop lieing about it), dps warriors, and sometimes mages over the rogues.
And yes, I'm referring to epic geared rogues vs. epic geared other classes.
I don't mind the idea of a narrow dps role, but when I see classes with a wider role (Such as warriors or warlocks) out damaging me, I think there is a problem.
I think this has a lot to do with the way Rogues level vs. the way Rogue damage scales in the end game.
When levelling, Sinister Strike and Eviscerate tends to be your bread and butter. You grow very used to those abilities as you get to 60, and for many, that's all they've ever done. The issue there is that Eviscerate doesn't scale with new gear, and Sinister Strike scales very little. The Rogues in my guild consistently come out on top due to utilizing a talent build geared specifically toward Slice and Dice, which is one of our best scaling abilities in end-game. If you play it smart, you can have the Slice and Dice buff on you almost constantly, thus increasing your damage output significantly. Warlocks do well, but they can't beat out our Rogues. ;)
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6097556 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 12:55:38 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
I think you misunderstood me, i've never seen "full on tanks, full on preists"
I've only seen "full on rogues"
there has to be a reason... and i have led more than one raid group thats looking at 3 hunters 3 rogues, only 1 warrior, 1 preist, saying... this just ain't gonna happen...
DPS, Rogues in particular, as they don't have pets to OT, or AOE like mages, CANNOT make up for a lack of healers and tanks, they arn't useful in endgame raids, but you can always fill the dps slot, hence you end up "full on rogues"
thanks for the reply to the post, i'm gonna leave ya with that though, it's just my personal experience... as a warrior (jasoninspace) that rogues are just filler spots
i luv em with my sunders on a mob, but it's the same as a hunter or mage, but it can't make up for a lacking role in a raid.
You're making this more complex than it is. The primary reason you never see those statements is population. Ever try making these groups? You're hard-pressed to find one healer. Honestly, any time I've seen "full on rogues" it's because there are Rogues already in the party. I ask. (What can I say, I'm curious.) It's not because that slot is filled with a Hunter or a Mage, it's because they already have Rogues. As there are more Rogues than there are Priests, you're naturally going to see that statement quite a bit.
Back before I was raiding consistently and sought groups all the time in Ironforge, there was something I termed the "Five Second Rogue Dogpile". You can see it if you watch the LFG channel. Rogues will state their interest in doing something, anything, and are normally slightly more desperate about revealing their redeeming qualities ("Have Imp Sap!" "Have UBRS Key!"). Then the sought-after statement rings out... "Forming group for UBRS PST". It takes about five seconds for that statement to become "Forming group for UBRS PST (full on Rogues)" because there were about six Rogues just waiting for that opportunity to open.
It's a class ratio and population issue.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6097699 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 12:59:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
Please don't tell me this is the end of the road as far as DPS balance is concerned. Even Slice and Dice is reaching its limitations.
Rogues haven't received their review yet. (They won't for a while.) The developers are always looking at the scalability of DPS as they add more content. Nothing is "the end of the road"; there is always chance for change.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6097732 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 1:12:12 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
4. Were constantly taking damage in End game raids, you think we have the time to bandage ourselves? Were a melee class O_O. Yeah a Hunter or Mage could probably do that, but there ranged classes and dont have to worry.
You can step back and bandage in most cases. Take for example the Baron Geddon fight: if he's pulsing, you could be bandaging. It only takes a little bit of time to get up to 300 First Aid -- it's worth it.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6097883 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 3:16:27 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
Why?
There are a lot of mobs. I tend to sap in big groups only around Thekal and Jin'do, but if there's only one mob that needs to be CC'd and it's humanoid, we sap instead of sheep -- we're done with the first mob before the sap's up, and Mages can concentrate on doing damage rather than sheeping.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6099271 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 3:20:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Lonawolfe, that's great that you want more versatility, but that isn't the question I asked. I asked what the individual wanted to be doing instead of DPS. That's where the role argument comes into play, not here. So honestly, the question I asked wasn't the one you've been seeking.
If you wanted to do all of that in addition to dealing DPS, something would have to give.
And it'd be your DPS.
Now, if you're interested in losing some significant DPS as a DPS-specialized class for more versatility, well, I can suggest that, but I don't think the developers would pile on such versatility on a class that is very much specialized without taking something away. And if that's done, many Rogues lose the purpose for which they played the class.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6099308 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/4/2005 3:31:06 PM PST
Subject: Re: Caydiem: Is Blizzard Being Hypocritical? |
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Q u o t e:
Different styles of raiding I guess... I've been in all sorts of ZG groups and even when we have 0-2 mages/druids we still dont find sap to be useful... it mostly just delays a pull.
*shrug* I'm a quick sapper. I'll wait right against the first few til the group's ready, then bop and go.
Good daycycle, Citizen!
The Computer is your friend.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6096887&p=#post6099429 |
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