Poster: Lorien at 11/28/2005 1:39:36 PM PST
Subject: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-mans? |
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Why does the reward increase in value as you add more people to the group? Should an item that is easily 20-maned in ZG be better than an item that is easily 5-maned in Stratholme?
I get that currently the most challenging content is 40-man raids. You can make the bosses tougher if you have more people to fight them. But since BWL is more difficult than MC, is it not feasible that the same principle could be applied to 5-mans?
Could you not create a 5-man that is just as difficult as BWL with similar rewards?
Quote from Zot (post appears further down page):
Q u o t e:
We don't want encounters whose 'difficulty' is based entirely on getting 40 people together at the same time. We want encounters whose difficulty is based on clever and efficient use of our abilities. The latter is completely independent of the number of people required.
Quote from Lorien (post appears later):
Q u o t e:
Organization and teamwork on a large scale is what makes the current 40-man raids epic. But what I am suggesting is finding something that replaces this as the epic quality for a 5-man.
Do you consider making the most of limited resources a challenge? Do you consider having to work together with 4 other people so well that their moves are practically your moves a challenge? Do you consider having to use all of your abilities, not just the 3 or 4 you would use in a raid a challenge?
There are ways to compensate for the lack of 40-man mass-organization.
[ post edited by Lorien ]
[url=http://users.wowguru.com/675441][img]http://www.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6005040 | | | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 8:29:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m |
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There have been a lot of good points and counter-points in this thread. I wanted to chip in my 2cp in terms of design intent and philosophy, so I am going to refrain from comment on the "man-hour/epic#" equation.
What I was going to comment on has been touched on in many respects by Shirokaze, so I shall quote partially (I suggest you read the full post if you haven't) and comment. Much of what I wanted to say and even the approach is contained in his/her response (beat me to it :P)
Q u o t e:
The number of players in a run sets a bar on how much you have possible before you just run out of potential. For example, in a five man group, you usually have one tank, one healer, at least two DPS (rogue, hunter, mage, warlock, some combination of these) and then a swing character of some sort (additional DPS or off tank or secondary healer). After a certain point, the damage concievably taken by a single tank caps. The amount of healing that a single or even two healers can do caps. The fact that fewer healers are healing what even in 40 man groups can be ONE maintank for some events means aggro is generated faster. Likewise for DPS, the more they dish out the more they risk capping it out.
More importantly, many of the things that are DONE to 40 man groups simply don't scale down to five. If you look at every 5-mannable run in the game as is, even UBRS, none of them employ anything terribly complex in the way of their encounters. There may be a reasonably high damage mob or a damage tick, but nothing like Shazzrah where a mob's teleporting into your casters and AEing them or like Vael where he's randomly popping off people while giving EVERYONE a unique buff that's simulataniously killing them. You can't lose people or afford to lose people in the same way with fewer people.
*snip, edit for length...*
The potential for varied encounters does increase with the number of players you add to the group/raid. This is not to say that you can't have nuanced and exciting challenges to a 5-person dungeon, but they are going to be decidedly different than what can occur in a 40-person dungeon. With 5-person dungeons, there is no opportunity for elements such as healer rotations, tank rotations (to a lesser extent) or even large(r) parties of elite mobs. Certain abilities of raid bosses do not translate to 5-person groups. How does a Major Domo encounter translate into a 5-person group? Is everyone supposed to tank a minion? How do you design such a thing?
What makes a raid boss truly epic? I can tell you it is not simply a matter of HP. If we buffed Darkmaster Gandling's HP to that of Ragnaros, he would simply become unbeatable. You could do that with the simplest trash mob and achieve the same results. A 5-person group would not have the stamina to beat it(npi).
Take Nefarion, for example. An ability that targets a specific class for punishment would wreak havoc on a 5-person group. With effectively no way to counter within a reasonable time, one person removed or killed from the group is a significant shift of power. The same cannot be said for Gandling, where a player's removal from the fight does not certify a group's doom.
The designers have sought a truly epic feel and play to these 40-person encounters. They continue to elaborate on encounters of this type in a way that is fun for players, but, in all honesty, fun for the devs, too. They are, after all, trying to develop imaginative ways in which to kill you. The nature of some of these raid encounters should convey that clearly.
When it comes down to it, a boss can be considered epic by their ability to crush legions of mortals before them. That is one way of looking at it. These bosses have powers and stature that merit epic rewards, regardless of how players are currently "trivializing" said content. And I use quotes rather facetiously.
As a whole, the designers are currently exploring many facets of what 40 and 20-person raid content can be. They would like to have many dungeons set up for players to select from. However, they would also like to explore the possibilities of content for smaller groups as well. There is definite interest in providing situations in which individual accomplishment stands out that much more. It is simply a matter of what is being explored, designed and implemented now/soon, as opposed to later.
But, I digress...
To answer directly the question posed in the subject line: No, it mustn't, but it is more available/likely now due to the epic nature of encounters.
P.S.- Sorry for the rambling...
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030179 | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 8:54:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m |
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Q u o t e:
That long response really didn't answer much.
However, it did point out to me the narrow-mindedness of the WOW developers in terms of itemization, drops and design potential. Blizzard's ability to produce varied, meaningful content is capped just as badly as the 5-man encounters that cap the usefulness of players involved.
Did you glean that insight from the part where I said the devs do have an interest in highlighting individual contribution in smaller scale dungeons? Trying to understand your point, here. Less hyperbole and more direct counter-points would be effective.
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030431 | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 8:59:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m |
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Q u o t e:
Right now there aren't any such instances.
Sorry, have to call you out on this point. If you care to check any of the varied resource or fan websites available, I'm sure you can locate epics that drop in 5-10-person instances. Or, even ask around these boards for that matter. This is simply not an issue of the door being closed for some and open to others.
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030475 | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 9:06:02 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m |
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Q u o t e:
Less hyperbole and more direct counter-points would be lovely from your direction, too.
What's coming in 1.10, another raid dungeon or a 5-10 dungeon?
Fair enough, although I don't think I was offering hyperbole, merely an assessment of how 40-person encounters allow for more/different design options.
To the point, however. The designers want to have a certain quantity of avilable 40 and 20 person raid content available in the more immediate sense. This is why Ahn'Qiraj is coming up. It is a different scenario than MC or BWL. However, it has been stated by the designers themselves on these boards as well as at BlizzCon that there is development of smaller-group content. Unfortunately, the confines of the work week only allow attention to certain overall goals. Or, more succinctly, one dungeon at a time.
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030550 | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 9:19:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m |
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Q u o t e:
Sorry, have to call you out on THIS point.
Blackrock Spire:
http://www.thottbot.com/?f=i&zones=101&qm=3&iz=1&cols=nktsq
Pattern: Robe of the Archmage, 10% drop rate.
Pristine Hide of the Beast, 3% drop rate.
Mark of the Dragon Lord, 1% drop rate.
Felstriker, 0.1% drop rate.
Chromatic Carapace, 0.8% drop rate.
Blade of Hanna: <0.1% drop rate.
Blackblade of Shahram: <0.1% drop rate.
The best drop rate there is for a pattern, for mage tailors only. You can't call that an open door.
Dire Maul
http://www.thottbot.com/?f=i&zones=119&qm=3&iz=1&cols=nktsq
Foror's Compendium of Dragon Slaying: 0.2% drop rate.
Pattern: Belt of the Archmage: 0.7% drop rate.
Pattern: Chromatic Cloak: 1.4% drop rate.
Pattern: Hide of the Wild: 6% drop rate.
Pattern: Shifting Cloak: 6% drop rate.
Woo, yeah, love those epic patterns with those epic drop rates.
Scholomance
http://www.thottbot.com/index.cgi?f=i&zones=116&qm=3&iz=1&cols=nktsq
Pattern: Robe of the Void, 3.8% drop rate.
Headmaster's Charge: 0.2% drop rate.
Alanna's Embrace: 0.2% drop rate.
Stratholme
http://www.thottbot.com/?f=i&zones=98&qm=3&iz=1&cols=nktsq
Runeblade of Baron Rivendare: 0.1% drop rate.
Pattern: Truefaith Vestments: 2.2% drop rate.
Cough.
Ummm....so your point is...what?
The blunt aspect of my nature is looking at your list of epics and reading "Yeah there are epic drops, but I don't like the rate at which they drop. I want what the other guys have."
The generous side of me is saying "You have a list of epic drops, is that not what you're looking for?"
Help me understand. Are you just looking for an epic armor set in a 5-10-person dungeon? Let's really get down to brass tacks here. What is it you want and why are the available "non-raiding" methods and items not satisfying to you? What exactly is the purpose of having better gear? To battle tougher creatures or to stroke ego? In all honesty, you seem to be pointing at others and saying "I want that". Please tell me you have stronger notions than that.
You have simply presented a list of epics and said "nah, that's not good enough".
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030654 | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 8:29:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m *edited post* |
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There have been a lot of good points and counter-points in this thread. I wanted to chip in my 2cp in terms of design intent and philosophy, so I am going to refrain from comment on the "man-hour/epic#" equation.
What I was going to comment on has been touched on in many respects by Shirokaze, so I shall quote partially (I suggest you read the full post if you haven't) and comment. Much of what I wanted to say and even the approach is contained in his/her response (beat me to it :P)
Q u o t e:
The number of players in a run sets a bar on how much you have possible before you just run out of potential. For example, in a five man group, you usually have one tank, one healer, at least two DPS (rogue, hunter, mage, warlock, some combination of these) and then a swing character of some sort (additional DPS or off tank or secondary healer). After a certain point, the damage concievably taken by a single tank caps. The amount of healing that a single or even two healers can do caps. The fact that fewer healers are healing what even in 40 man groups can be ONE maintank for some events means aggro is generated faster. Likewise for DPS, the more they dish out the more they risk capping it out.
More importantly, many of the things that are DONE to 40 man groups simply don't scale down to five. If you look at every 5-mannable run in the game as is, even UBRS, none of them employ anything terribly complex in the way of their encounters. There may be a reasonably high damage mob or a damage tick, but nothing like Shazzrah where a mob's teleporting into your casters and AEing them or like Vael where he's randomly popping off people while giving EVERYONE a unique buff that's simulataniously killing them. You can't lose people or afford to lose people in the same way with fewer people.
*snip, edit for length...*
The potential for varied encounters does increase with the number of players you add to the group/raid. This is not to say that you can't have nuanced and exciting challenges to a 5-person dungeon, but they are going to be decidedly different than what can occur in a 40-person dungeon. With 5-person dungeons, there is no opportunity for elements such as healer rotations, tank rotations (to a lesser extent) or even large(r) parties of elite mobs. Certain abilities of raid bosses do not translate to 5-person groups. How does a Major Domo encounter translate into a 5-person group? Is everyone supposed to tank a minion? How do you design such a thing?
What makes a raid boss truly epic? I can tell you it is not simply a matter of HP. If we buffed Darkmaster Gandling's HP to that of Ragnaros, he would simply become unbeatable. You could do that with the simplest trash mob and achieve the same results. A 5-person group would not have the stamina to beat it(npi).
Take Nefarion, for example. An ability that targets a specific class for punishment would wreak havoc on a 5-person group. With effectively no way to counter within a reasonable time, one person removed or killed from the group is a significant shift of power. The same cannot be said for Gandling, where a player's removal from the fight does not certify a group's doom.
The designers have sought a truly epic feel and play to these 40-person encounters. They continue to elaborate on encounters of this type in a way that is fun for players, but, in all honesty, fun for the devs, too. They are, after all, trying to develop imaginative ways in which to kill you. The nature of some of these raid encounters should convey that clearly.
When it comes down to it, a boss can be considered epic by their ability to crush legions of mortals before them. That is one way of looking at it. These bosses have powers and stature that merit epic rewards, regardless of how players are currently "trivializing" said content. And I use quotes rather facetiously.
As a whole, the designers are currently exploring many facets of what 40 and 20-person raid content can be. They would like to have many dungeons set up for players to select from. However, they would also like to explore the possibilities of content for smaller groups as well. There is definite interest in providing situations in which individual accomplishment stands out that much more. It is simply a matter of what is being explored, designed and implemented now/soon, as opposed to later.
But, I digress...
To answer directly the question posed in the subject line: No, it mustn't, but it is more available/likely now due to the epic nature of encounters.
P.S.- Sorry for the rambling...
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030179 | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 8:54:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
That long response really didn't answer much.
However, it did point out to me the narrow-mindedness of the WOW developers in terms of itemization, drops and design potential. Blizzard's ability to produce varied, meaningful content is capped just as badly as the 5-man encounters that cap the usefulness of players involved.
Did you glean that insight from the part where I said the devs do have an interest in highlighting individual contribution in smaller scale dungeons? Trying to understand your point, here. Less hyperbole and more direct counter-points would be effective.
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030431 | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 8:59:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Right now there aren't any such instances.
Sorry, have to call you out on this point. If you care to check any of the varied resource or fan websites available, I'm sure you can locate epics that drop in 5-10-person instances. Or, even ask around these boards for that matter. This is simply not an issue of the door being closed for some and open to others.
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030475 | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 9:06:02 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Less hyperbole and more direct counter-points would be lovely from your direction, too.
What's coming in 1.10, another raid dungeon or a 5-10 dungeon?
Fair enough, although I don't think I was offering hyperbole, merely an assessment of how 40-person encounters allow for more/different design options.
To the point, however. The designers want to have a certain quantity of avilable 40 and 20 person raid content available in the more immediate sense. This is why Ahn'Qiraj is coming up. It is a different scenario than MC or BWL. However, it has been stated by the designers themselves on these boards as well as at BlizzCon that there is development of smaller-group content. Unfortunately, the confines of the work week only allow attention to certain overall goals. Or, more succinctly, one dungeon at a time.
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030550 | Poster: Tseric at 11/29/2005 9:19:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: Must 40-mans have better rewards than 5-m *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Sorry, have to call you out on THIS point.
Blackrock Spire:
http://www.thottbot.com/?f=i&zones=101&qm=3&iz=1&cols=nktsq
Pattern: Robe of the Archmage, 10% drop rate.
Pristine Hide of the Beast, 3% drop rate.
Mark of the Dragon Lord, 1% drop rate.
Felstriker, 0.1% drop rate.
Chromatic Carapace, 0.8% drop rate.
Blade of Hanna: <0.1% drop rate.
Blackblade of Shahram: <0.1% drop rate.
The best drop rate there is for a pattern, for mage tailors only. You can't call that an open door.
Dire Maul
http://www.thottbot.com/?f=i&zones=119&qm=3&iz=1&cols=nktsq
Foror's Compendium of Dragon Slaying: 0.2% drop rate.
Pattern: Belt of the Archmage: 0.7% drop rate.
Pattern: Chromatic Cloak: 1.4% drop rate.
Pattern: Hide of the Wild: 6% drop rate.
Pattern: Shifting Cloak: 6% drop rate.
Woo, yeah, love those epic patterns with those epic drop rates.
Scholomance
http://www.thottbot.com/index.cgi?f=i&zones=116&qm=3&iz=1&cols=nktsq
Pattern: Robe of the Void, 3.8% drop rate.
Headmaster's Charge: 0.2% drop rate.
Alanna's Embrace: 0.2% drop rate.
Stratholme
http://www.thottbot.com/?f=i&zones=98&qm=3&iz=1&cols=nktsq
Runeblade of Baron Rivendare: 0.1% drop rate.
Pattern: Truefaith Vestments: 2.2% drop rate.
Cough.
Ummm....so your point is...what?
The blunt aspect of my nature is looking at your list of epics and reading "Yeah there are epic drops, but I don't like the rate at which they drop. I want what the other guys have."
The generous side of me is saying "You have a list of epic drops, is that not what you're looking for?"
Help me understand. Are you just looking for an epic armor set in a 5-10-person dungeon? Let's really get down to brass tacks here. What is it you want and why are the available "non-raiding" methods and items not satisfying to you? What exactly is the purpose of having better gear? To battle tougher creatures or to stroke ego? In all honesty, you seem to be pointing at others and saying "I want that". Please tell me you have stronger notions than that.
You have simply presented a list of epics and said "nah, that's not good enough".
Take a step outside yourself
And you turn around...
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6005040&p=#post6030654 |
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