Poster: Melhior at 11/4/2005 11:48:56 AM PST
Subject: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but back during the Beta, I could have sworn Blizzard promised us Hero classes at launch.
During Launch, I could have sworn they promised us they'd be patched in shortly following the game going Live.
After they weren't patched in for a bit, weren't we told they'd be be given to us in the expansion?
But instead, we get a damn level cap raised. Nothing new or exciting or radically altering a gameplay thats rapidly becoming vapid and boring, but instead a brand new timesink, where the only accomplishment will be to spend days getting to where most of us already are (ie, at the level cap). We'll be running forward to get to where we already are.
Good show Blizzard. If yall had opened your mouth with something you couldn't accomplish, it would have been better to admit it rather then keep promising us it would happen in the future.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5635768 |
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Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 11:55:29 AM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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We stated that we planned to have Hero Classes in at launch during earlier beta. Plans change. There was never a "promise".
Around launch, we stated that we planned to release Hero Classes as soon as we could. Plans change. There was never a "promise".
Hero Classes are not planned for the expansion, to my knowledge.
They are actively in development.
We plan to add them into the game when they're done.
That's not a promise.
Plans change. We give you future information when we can, but we do not "promise" these things -- the fact that such plans become "promises" in the eyes of many is the reason we don't give you a great deal of future plans. I've stated our current plan. Take it for what it is. :)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5635898 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 12:12:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Q u o t e:
You should go into politics or talk radio. You're as mealy-mouthed as the worst of those that dwell in the land of 24-hour cable "news" or inside the Beltway.
I fail to see what is so terribly politician-like about explaining that plans change in a game development cycle.
There's a misconception -- and a natural one to make -- that when we give our current plans for implementing something in the future, that's a promise. Unless we actually say "I promise", it's, well, not a promise, because that's not what we said. We stated flat out that we "plan" to have Hero Classes in by X time. Plan. It was a plan. I'm not trying to rewrite history -- I'm sure Google can pull up those posts if you don't believe me.
In the course of game development, particularly as a game approaches launch, planned features are reassessed. There's a time when you need to shift your schedule or suffer from "feature creep". We commit to delivering the best quality game possible, and the idea of Hero Classes, while an intriguing feature, was not considered "core" to the launch of the game, and thus they were pushed back.
We've been focused on polishing the game that's there already, balancing the classes we have and delivering repeatable content that all can enjoy. Hero Classes are not being ignored. They're in development -- the design is being discussed. We're not idle in regards to the feature.
Please don't mistake a future plan in game development for a promise -- they are two completely different things.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5636207 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 12:31:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Some quotes from the past, if you're still uncertain:
Katricia, June 30, 2004:
Q u o t e:
Although I can not give you any specific Hero information, the team is still planning to have the Hero classes available for the release of World of Warcraft. As we move forward into the end-game of beta testing, testers will most likely have the opportunity to see what the team has in store for the various Hero classes.
Katricia, July 26, 2004:
Q u o t e:
After achieving the maximum level in the game, players will be able try to become a Hero Class. Becoming a Hero will be very difficult and arduous, since you can only become a Hero until after maximum level, we do not plan to implement Hero Classes until after all of the game content is completed.
I fail to see why we need to have this debate on semantics. (Semantics, at its root, is the study of meanings.) I am clarifying the misconception that we promised Hero Classes by X time when we quite simply did not. For those of you who seek further guidance:
Main Entry: plan
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): planned; plan·ning
transitive senses
1 : to arrange the parts of : DESIGN
2 : to devise or project the realization or achievement of <plan a program>
3 : to have in mind : INTEND
Main Entry: promise
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): prom·ised; prom·is·ing
transitive senses
1 : to pledge to do, bring about, or provide <promise aid>
2 archaic : WARRANT, ASSURE
3 chiefly dialect : BETROTH
These words are not synonyms. I do not see how a semantics discussion should be evident when there was no implication of a promise given in what we said. All I am doing here is clearing up the incorrect assumptions regarding what we've said in the past. I am sorry if you built up what we've stated to be a promise in your mind over all this time, but that was not the case.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5636616 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 1:44:57 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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The original post is not ad hominem in any way and the poster isn't banned. Please put away the tinfoil hats. :)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5638283 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 2:37:55 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Q u o t e:
I think you community managers really need to stop being so uppity. Is it really so hard to be civil and not act like everyone reading your posts is stupid?
You do realize that you have people who play the game who are doctors, lawyers and all sorts of professionals. You should not stoop to this level of near insults as a professional, uh, whatever it is you guys are and having whatever credentials it must take to achieve such a lofty position. You'd have a much better community.
Now that's ad hominem. ;)
Regardless of profession, this is simple reading comprehension. If someone of my dubious "credentials" can understand a simple concept such as plan vs. promise, I would hope that others who have more schooling and experience than I could comprehend it as well.
Unfortunately, there has been significant misconception in the community on this subject. I am fine discussing it in a civil fashion, but when one accuses us of promising something we did not, I find that it is important to clarify.
As you can see, even after several pages, some people are still arguing with said simple concept.
In an ideal world, I wouldn't have to repeat myself on this subject. :/
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639362 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 2:43:46 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Q u o t e:
Cay, fair enough, let me ask you this, would a Ad fall into the Plan or Promise bucket?
This is a fine hypothetical question. I counter it with a question of my own: can you show me an advertisement that talked about Hero Classes?
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639453 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 2:57:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Q u o t e:
People who have been keeping up since beta (and before) know all about how hero classes were advertised. We don't need to prove anything. Asking us to prove they talked about hero classes implies that we are all making it up. That is not ok.
Actually, burden of proof tends to be on the accuser, not the accused. ;)
By all means, I'd love to see one of these advertisements. Surely the internet has archived something if they were advertised so clearly.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639701 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 3:03:44 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Q u o t e:
Don't feel like looking it up because I don't have to. You are accusing us of making up how Blizzard said we would be getting hero classes. Prove it.
Are we all having a communal dream where it never happened? Why do people talk about hero classes at all?
No, that's not at all what I'm saying.
I personally quoted two of Katricia's posts from last year talking about our plans for hero classes back then.
Those aren't advertisements, however.
You're accusing us of advertising hero classes and failing to follow through -- let's not try to turn it around. I'll happily admit to being wrong if you can prove it. :)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639820 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 3:13:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Hogan, I am not going to apologize for my earlier counterpart discussing a planned upcoming feature on these boards while the game was in beta. I will, however, issue the following apologies:
I am sorry if players were under the impression that Hero Classes were promised to be out by launch or shortly after launch.
I am sorry if players have continued to operate under this impression and thus feel cheated by it.
I am sorry if you feel we have not given you enough information on this particular feature that has been in the very early concept phases since its announcement due to the shifting nature of class balance.
I am sorry if you were expecting them to be announced in the expansion.
I am sorry if what information given at BlizzCon about Hero Classes -- that they are still on our minds and in development -- was not enough for those seeking answers.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639997 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 3:23:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Q u o t e:
Caydiem, while you are reading this thread can we just get a simple acknowledgement? I just want to hear that Hero Classes will definitely be released at some time, when they are ready. I want to hear that under no circumstances will the idea be scrapped and we will be told "Oh well, plans are not promises!"
So at some time in the future will we definitely have hero classes?
Ah, so you want a promise that they'll be implemented.
Sorry, that's not my pledge to give. Our plan is to implement them currently, yes, but you'll not get a statement like "This will absolutely happen" out of me practically ever, regardless of topic. ;)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
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| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5640188 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 4:01:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? |
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Q u o t e:
Caydiem, can you at least give everyone the confirmation that they are still currently in developement, and that they are currently slated, however tentatively, for a later release or expansion?
That's not a promise that they WILL be available. It's merely "We're working on it still, but have other balance issues more urgent and pressing." It may be enough for people to accept, however grudgingly, that they'll have to wait longer.
I did already in this thread. In my first response, yet. They're still in development. :P
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5640749 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 11:55:29 AM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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We stated that we planned to have Hero Classes in at launch during earlier beta. Plans change. There was never a "promise".
Around launch, we stated that we planned to release Hero Classes as soon as we could. Plans change. There was never a "promise".
Hero Classes are not planned for the expansion, to my knowledge.
They are actively in development.
We plan to add them into the game when they're done.
That's not a promise.
Plans change. We give you future information when we can, but we do not "promise" these things -- the fact that such plans become "promises" in the eyes of many is the reason we don't give you a great deal of future plans. I've stated our current plan. Take it for what it is. :)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5635898 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 12:12:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
You should go into politics or talk radio. You're as mealy-mouthed as the worst of those that dwell in the land of 24-hour cable "news" or inside the Beltway.
I fail to see what is so terribly politician-like about explaining that plans change in a game development cycle.
There's a misconception -- and a natural one to make -- that when we give our current plans for implementing something in the future, that's a promise. Unless we actually say "I promise", it's, well, not a promise, because that's not what we said. We stated flat out that we "plan" to have Hero Classes in by X time. Plan. It was a plan. I'm not trying to rewrite history -- I'm sure Google can pull up those posts if you don't believe me.
In the course of game development, particularly as a game approaches launch, planned features are reassessed. There's a time when you need to shift your schedule or suffer from "feature creep". We commit to delivering the best quality game possible, and the idea of Hero Classes, while an intriguing feature, was not considered "core" to the launch of the game, and thus they were pushed back.
We've been focused on polishing the game that's there already, balancing the classes we have and delivering repeatable content that all can enjoy. Hero Classes are not being ignored. They're in development -- the design is being discussed. We're not idle in regards to the feature.
Please don't mistake a future plan in game development for a promise -- they are two completely different things.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5636207 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 12:31:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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Some quotes from the past, if you're still uncertain:
Katricia, June 30, 2004:
Q u o t e:
Although I can not give you any specific Hero information, the team is still planning to have the Hero classes available for the release of World of Warcraft. As we move forward into the end-game of beta testing, testers will most likely have the opportunity to see what the team has in store for the various Hero classes.
Katricia, July 26, 2004:
Q u o t e:
After achieving the maximum level in the game, players will be able try to become a Hero Class. Becoming a Hero will be very difficult and arduous, since you can only become a Hero until after maximum level, we do not plan to implement Hero Classes until after all of the game content is completed.
I fail to see why we need to have this debate on semantics. (Semantics, at its root, is the study of meanings.) I am clarifying the misconception that we promised Hero Classes by X time when we quite simply did not. For those of you who seek further guidance:
Main Entry: plan
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): planned; plan·ning
transitive senses
1 : to arrange the parts of : DESIGN
2 : to devise or project the realization or achievement of <plan a program>
3 : to have in mind : INTEND
Main Entry: promise
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): prom·ised; prom·is·ing
transitive senses
1 : to pledge to do, bring about, or provide <promise aid>
2 archaic : WARRANT, ASSURE
3 chiefly dialect : BETROTH
These words are not synonyms. I do not see how a semantics discussion should be evident when there was no implication of a promise given in what we said. All I am doing here is clearing up the incorrect assumptions regarding what we've said in the past. I am sorry if you built up what we've stated to be a promise in your mind over all this time, but that was not the case.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5636616 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 1:44:57 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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The original post is not ad hominem in any way and the poster isn't banned. Please put away the tinfoil hats. :)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5638283 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 2:37:55 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
I think you community managers really need to stop being so uppity. Is it really so hard to be civil and not act like everyone reading your posts is stupid?
You do realize that you have people who play the game who are doctors, lawyers and all sorts of professionals. You should not stoop to this level of near insults as a professional, uh, whatever it is you guys are and having whatever credentials it must take to achieve such a lofty position. You'd have a much better community.
Now that's ad hominem. ;)
Regardless of profession, this is simple reading comprehension. If someone of my dubious "credentials" can understand a simple concept such as plan vs. promise, I would hope that others who have more schooling and experience than I could comprehend it as well.
Unfortunately, there has been significant misconception in the community on this subject. I am fine discussing it in a civil fashion, but when one accuses us of promising something we did not, I find that it is important to clarify.
As you can see, even after several pages, some people are still arguing with said simple concept.
In an ideal world, I wouldn't have to repeat myself on this subject. :/
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639362 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 2:43:46 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Cay, fair enough, let me ask you this, would a Ad fall into the Plan or Promise bucket?
This is a fine hypothetical question. I counter it with a question of my own: can you show me an advertisement that talked about Hero Classes?
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639453 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 2:57:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
People who have been keeping up since beta (and before) know all about how hero classes were advertised. We don't need to prove anything. Asking us to prove they talked about hero classes implies that we are all making it up. That is not ok.
Actually, burden of proof tends to be on the accuser, not the accused. ;)
By all means, I'd love to see one of these advertisements. Surely the internet has archived something if they were advertised so clearly.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639701 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 3:03:44 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Don't feel like looking it up because I don't have to. You are accusing us of making up how Blizzard said we would be getting hero classes. Prove it.
Are we all having a communal dream where it never happened? Why do people talk about hero classes at all?
No, that's not at all what I'm saying.
I personally quoted two of Katricia's posts from last year talking about our plans for hero classes back then.
Those aren't advertisements, however.
You're accusing us of advertising hero classes and failing to follow through -- let's not try to turn it around. I'll happily admit to being wrong if you can prove it. :)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639820 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 3:13:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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Hogan, I am not going to apologize for my earlier counterpart discussing a planned upcoming feature on these boards while the game was in beta. I will, however, issue the following apologies:
I am sorry if players were under the impression that Hero Classes were promised to be out by launch or shortly after launch.
I am sorry if players have continued to operate under this impression and thus feel cheated by it.
I am sorry if you feel we have not given you enough information on this particular feature that has been in the very early concept phases since its announcement due to the shifting nature of class balance.
I am sorry if you were expecting them to be announced in the expansion.
I am sorry if what information given at BlizzCon about Hero Classes -- that they are still on our minds and in development -- was not enough for those seeking answers.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5639997 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 3:23:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Caydiem, while you are reading this thread can we just get a simple acknowledgement? I just want to hear that Hero Classes will definitely be released at some time, when they are ready. I want to hear that under no circumstances will the idea be scrapped and we will be told "Oh well, plans are not promises!"
So at some time in the future will we definitely have hero classes?
Ah, so you want a promise that they'll be implemented.
Sorry, that's not my pledge to give. Our plan is to implement them currently, yes, but you'll not get a statement like "This will absolutely happen" out of me practically ever, regardless of topic. ;)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5640188 |
Poster: Caydiem at 11/4/2005 4:01:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: Anyone else feel lied to? *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Caydiem, can you at least give everyone the confirmation that they are still currently in developement, and that they are currently slated, however tentatively, for a later release or expansion?
That's not a promise that they WILL be available. It's merely "We're working on it still, but have other balance issues more urgent and pressing." It may be enough for people to accept, however grudgingly, that they'll have to wait longer.
I did already in this thread. In my first response, yet. They're still in development. :P
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5635768&p=#post5640749 |
