Poster: Bludwurth at 11/2/2005 12:55:08 PM PST
Subject: No Class Reps Huh? What's the point of a CM? |
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This is something that has been a topic of discussion for quite some time. Most of us knew there are no such thing as class representatives, as stated by Caydiem in another post. So of course, this means I will have to question some of the statements presented.
Caydiem:
1) There are no class representatives.
Bludwurth:
Then what exactly is the point in having CM's? You represent nothing. Why are you here?
Caydiem:
2) The Community Representatives that field feedback do not take their personal feedback to the developers, nor do they believe their personal experience in game is the only one worth counting. They take your feedback to the developers.
Bludwurth:
O'rly? Which is why there are still a batallion of bugs in the game that should've been fixed a long time ago, along with other class issues that have been brought up constructively many times only to either get "evaded" or flat out ignored, or to have something completely out in left field implemented and be told that its "what you've been asking for all along". And if you're a warlock, having the "what you've been asking for all along" nerfed to near uselessnes in the next patch or two.
Caydiem:
2a) I have a level 60 Rogue, for example. I raid with him. I, personally, do not have a problem with the class, but again, my personal opinion is not what matters. Your opinion is what the developers hear.
You are complaining about a system that doesn't exist on these forums. Community representatives play a class to gain a frame of reference, primarily. When you complain about a particular ability, spell, talent, or piece of gear, we can relate and sympathize because we know precisely what you're talking about. We have context. We use that context to deliver, again, your feedback to the developers in a manner with which they'll sympathize.
Bludwurth:
There are so many things wrong and contradictory within the above statement, I'm sure I don't EVEN need to point them out.
Caydiem:
2a cont) How well do you think Hunters did when they were reviewed overall, Overen? Pretty well, yes? The majority of Hunters seem to be more or less happy with what they received.
My Hunter was in its 30s when I related the feedback to the developers.
The reason why it worked is because I don't consider my personal experience in game to be the only experience worth relating. My experiences take a back seat to your own when I'm talking to the developers. The way I was able to relate Hunter concerns well was simple; using my own play experience as basic knowledge of how the class operates (note: NOT the problems with the class), I read the player feedback on the forums, was able to relate as I had context with my own character, and then spoke with the developers about these confidently. I was not fumbling in the dark with the class, but my own play experience was not the focus -- or even factored in, really -- to the feedback I gave.
Bludwurth:
So what's the excuse when it came to what Warlock's got when they were Improved/Nerfed. I can guarantee you not many were happy after being told to spec Demonology if they wanted defense, only to have the main defensive talent in the tree nerfed to hell.
Paladins are still waiting on their long overdue checkup, and Mage players are still wondering if Invisibility and the unlocking ability will ever see the light of day.
I could go on about this single topic right here for a good 4 posts. But I digress.
Caydiem:
3)In short, your perception of how our feedback system works is a bit skewed, and I hope this has enlightened you somewhat.
Bludwurth:
It has enlightened me quite a bit. In some cases, it works very well. Most of the time, it does not work at all.
I am not unsympathetic to Caydiem and the other CM's when it comes to their job and the weight it carries. They take a lot of stuff from people here, but they keep on keeping on. Where my sympathies stop it is when class boards go weeks to months without someone speaking up and letting the players of that class know what's going on with them. Even if they step in and say that nothing is going on, that would be fine. There needs to be a presence. When there is no presence, it makes players feel as if they have been abandoned. A class representative should be appointed for each class, so that there is some type of presence there. At least this way, each class knows that they have a "voice".
I do not know what a CM's job is exactly. However, I don't understand why a CM could not become a class representative outside of the fact that they are afraid to put responsibility on any one person regarding a class. If that's the case, then it needs to be tossed out because whether it's known or not, whatever CM watches over a particular class forum officially becomes the person looked to when it comes to class issues. It doesn't matter how many times you state you don't soley represent the class. You watch over the board, you are the closest thing to a class rep the class has. Accept the position and deal, or bring in some people who are willing to become Class Reps. Because at this point, there really isn't a reason to have a CM around. In your present form, you currently serve no purpose.
This is not met to be an angry post. I'm just stating my opinion on a topic that comes up every now and then and should be addressed.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5600287&p=#post5600287 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 1:26:22 PM PST
Subject: Re: No Class Reps Huh? What's the point of a |
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Q u o t e:
Bludwurth:
Then what exactly is the point in having CM's? You represent nothing. Why are you here?
We represent the community as a whole rather than one particular class. Everything rather than nothing, my friend.
Q u o t e:
Bludwurth:
O'rly? Which is why there are still a batallion of bugs in the game that should've been fixed a long time ago, along with other class issues that have been brought up constructively many times only to either get "evaded" or flat out ignored, or to have something completely out in left field implemented and be told that its "what you've been asking for all along". And if you're a warlock, having the "what you've been asking for all along" nerfed to near uselessnes in the next patch or two.
In an ideal world, there would be neither bugs nor imbalances; the game would perform perfectly and to everyone's satisfaction.
This is not an ideal world. The developers are not infallible. Sometimes bugs take a long time to fix.
In regards to feedback, the developers listen, and they have implemented several things asked for by players -- but they are not required to change the game because you don't like something. They listen, but are not obligated to follow through.
Q u o t e:
Bludwurth:
So what's the excuse when it came to what Warlock's got when they were Improved/Nerfed. I can guarantee you not many were happy after being told to spec Demonology if they wanted defense, only to have the main defensive talent in the tree nerfed to hell.
Paladins are still waiting on their long overdue checkup, and Mage players are still wondering if Invisibility and the unlocking ability will ever see the light of day.
I could go on about this single topic right here for a good 4 posts. But I digress.
The developers listened to your concerns then, too. But again, what the players desire and what is best for the game sometimes differ; the developers, when given a choice, always pick the latter.
Q u o t e:
Bludwurth:
It has enlightened me quite a bit. In some cases, it works very well. Most of the time, it does not work at all.
I am not unsympathetic to Caydiem and the other CM's when it comes to their job and the weight it carries. They take a lot of stuff from people here, but they keep on keeping on. Where my sympathies stop it is when class boards go weeks to months without someone speaking up and letting the players of that class know what's going on with them. Even if they step in and say that nothing is going on, that would be fine. There needs to be a presence. When there is no presence, it makes players feel as if they have been abandoned. A class representative should be appointed for each class, so that there is some type of presence there. At least this way, each class knows that they have a "voice".
I do not know what a CM's job is exactly. However, I don't understand why a CM could not become a class representative outside of the fact that they are afraid to put responsibility on any one person regarding a class. If that's the case, then it needs to be tossed out because whether it's known or not, whatever CM watches over a particular class forum officially becomes the person looked to when it comes to class issues. It doesn't matter how many times you state you don't soley represent the class. You watch over the board, you are the closest thing to a class rep the class has. Accept the position and deal, or bring in some people who are willing to become Class Reps. Because at this point, there really isn't a reason to have a CM around. In your present form, you currently serve no purpose.
This is not met to be an angry post. I'm just stating my opinion on a topic that comes up every now and then and should be addressed.
We are not going to "accept the position and deal" when what you're asking for is a perpetuation of the misconception that we field one class and only one class. We field every class. You may be looking to Eyonix one week and Tseric the next -- it's all about who has time to dedicate to a project at that time. When there is not an intensive review for a class occurring, we only post in class forums if we have something to give you. If there is no blue there, it doesn't mean we're not there -- it means we have nothing to say. We're not going to post "nothing to report". We're not going to set up a system that shows we've read a thread. If you choose to believe that we ignore the forums, feel free, but you're incorrect; we're there and reading.
As always, if you wish to send feedback on our performance or suggestions on how our team could improve, eMail wowcmfeedback@blizzard.com -- it goes directly to my immediate supervisor.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5600287&p=#post5600998 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 1:52:39 PM PST
Subject: Re: No Class Reps Huh? What's the point of a |
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Q u o t e:
Caydiem, with all due respect...
Consider soul shards. Soul shards are widely disliked. If soul shards disappeared tomorrow, nobody except warlocks would notice. Soul shard bags, something which was promised many patches ago, are still not going to materialize because Blizzard programmers aren't smart enough to change the database schema for character inventories.
Is keeping soul shards REALLY best for the game? I think it's designer hubris, at this point, that's keeping them.
Cag
Yes, the developers are still of the mind that soul shards are there for the betterment of the game. This is one of those situations where player perceptions differ from designer plans.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5600287&p=#post5601586 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 2:07:11 PM PST
Subject: Re: No Class Reps Huh? What's the point of a |
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Q u o t e:
Which is immediatly deleted or put into a folder maked "archive" but never read by a human. Same with the GM feedback.
I just wish some CM's played a rogue on a PvP server so they, you know, HAD to know something about the class.
Also, it is common knowledge that anything you study you inherently change. So this "It's your opinions" stuff isn't quite accurate. You yourself say that you play the classes so that you can 'understand' how they work and thus have a good frame of reference when hearing about issue X.
However those opinions you take back to the devs are rewriten by you and if you expect us to believe that not even a small ammount of your own personality leaks into these reports than I've got a bridge to sell you.
Cm's that work with a single class, and work to take the concerns of that single class to the devs would be far more benificial to everyone in the long run.
I'm afraid that I cannot believe that you guys don't favor one class over another and with the frequency at which you 'Caydiem' are seen in the Druid forums it would seem that my hypothesis is correct.
The fact that the most active CM is most active with and is openly a devout member of a class that has recently seen one of the biggest buffs in-game does seem to be a bit fishy. How you cannot see that comeing across as favoritism to the rest of the classes is beyond me.
We don't see the inner workings of the Blizzards Cm department, you yourself seem to be trying to make that quite clear. So all we are left with is speculation. You have to understand that from our perspective Druids have recieved a buff that both makes no sense Healing class hybrid out dpsing a pure dps class wtf??
AND happens to have the most active CM as their biggest supporter.. ya we see the way the wind is blowing Caydiem.
Considering I have a level 60 Rogue, too... :P
You're aware that Tyren has a level 60 Rogue on a PvP realm, yes?
Hunters were represented. They received their changes. I haven't posted much since.
Druids were represented. They received their changes. I haven't posted in their forums since the patch went live.
Do we change your posts from their original form? Yes, yes we do. Do you know why?
Our job is one of translation. Your posts are valid, but they're very centric to your own experiences and bias as a player. That's fine. It provides an excellent perspective that we can use. But it's not precisely the best way to approach developers.
We take your personal experiences and translate them, it's true. We speak to the developers about your concerns with their mindsets and positions in mind primarily. It is our experience with a given class that helps in that translation; it acts as a dictionary of sorts, a reference tool, that lends us confidence when we're relating your words in the way with which developers will sympathize and relate.
If we brought your feedback to them in its raw form, trust me, they probably wouldn't listen nearly as much as they do. ;)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5600287&p=#post5601953 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 9:37:19 PM PST
Subject: Re: No Class Reps Huh? What's the point of a |
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There are no plans for class representatives from the community. After seeing and understanding how such systems worked in the past with other games, we feel that's not the best way to go with World of Warcraft at this time. Sorry. :)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5600287&p=#post5608893 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 9:45:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: No Class Reps Huh? What's the point of a |
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Q u o t e:
Come on, Cay. Give it a one time shot. If it goes horribly wrong, banish it and run. If it goes right...bingo.
I am not going to "give it a one time shot". There are many inherent problems with such a program that can create lasting damage. With all due respect, this is my community to manage, and the system you propose is not all peaches and cream. There are a lot of potential downfalls, as anyone who has experienced player class representatives in previous games can tell you.
At this time, we have no plans to have such a system, and your plea has not changed that.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5600287&p=#post5608989 | Poster: Caydiem at 11/2/2005 9:54:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: No Class Reps Huh? What's the point of a |
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Q u o t e:
This MVP system you're planning to put in, Caydiem, surely it can be extended _slightly_ beyond what you've already outlined? Some kind of constant, regular exchange even if it's question/answer would allow you to put out a lot of the fires around at the moment.
I realise at least some of the issues involved in a class representative system, but I (at least) am not suggesting any responsibilities other than posting concise, clear questions that allow you to calm the populace down by taking some time, every fortnight, or hell even every month, to answer.
The fact is that a lot of people feel isolated and ignored. I know that this isn't on purpose and I realise that you have a lot to do, but I can't really see you making any headway in reducing the amount of abuse heaped upon you and Blizzard's public face, without some kind of regular, ongoing communication that people can rely on and look forward to.
Hell, even if you started a thread every fortnight for people to post their primary issues and concerns. Ignore anything that doesn't fit the requirements of being concise, intelligent and well-formed. Then answer within a week.
Bah. I'm sure you've already considered such options and you're steadfast in your opinion that no communication to the classes that have been 'fixed' is better than any kind of interaction at this point. Considering what some of you go through, I'm not surprised, but I would respectfully suggest something be done. The problems with people being angry about lack of communication are not going away, and they're getting worse. It's November, nearly a year. =/ You've made great progress, including in customer relations, but the feeling of isolation from some classes is starting to become venomous.
Please understand that such a system has been discussed time and again and we continually come back to the same conclusion -- based on what has gone on in the past, the way our team functions, and the way the feedback cycle works, player class representatives would hinder rather than help the process.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5600287&p=#post5609115 |
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