Poster: Saiff at 10/24/2005 12:37:13 PM PDT
Subject: Race and the Gender issue. |
| |
Ok, I would like to make this evident to the people that think "Why do humans play dwarves/night elves/tauren etc." is a valid counterarguement to the real life/game gender issue.
This is indeed a dispute about gender, not roleplaying as a whole. The question is, why would someone who is male play a character that is female and the vise-versa. So, no matter what you say about the persons race, that information is completely useless. The root of the issue is gender, not the roleplaying itself.[ post edited by Saiff ]
Smoooke On the Water!
Fire in the Sky!
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5445764 |
| |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 12:41:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. |
| |
Indeed.
I fail to see why you term it a "problem". You are aware, of course, that there are females out there that play male characters as well?
Now, I would like you to clarify -- do you consider role playing as a whole an invalid reason for individuals choosing a gender different from their own, or merely that race doesn't factor into it? I disagree on both counts, but I'm interested in hearing your elaboration on why you feel it is irrelevant.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5445858 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 12:49:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. |
| |
Q u o t e:
Ok, I meant the root of the dispute, I never meant to say that it was a "problem" I meant to say that the fact that people used race as a counterarguement was a problem, missing the idea of the topic altogether. I mean no ill will to anyone.
Again, I disagree.
Each race in the game is designed differently. If they all had similar aesthetics, you might have a point, but as they all look very different and differ considerably from male to female, race choice is in fact a significant factor. The "well, I'm not an elf in real life, either" argument is frivolous, I'll agree, but it does touch on a very valid reason for choosing gender -- the act of playing a role. As such, it is part and parcel of the argument and isn't really separate at all.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5446035 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 12:53:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. |
| |
Q u o t e:
Actually Harry Potter is written in the 3rd person, not the first.
Nice try though.
You can write in third person and still be writing from a particular character's perspective. :)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5446145 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 1:04:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. |
| |
Q u o t e:
Not on my server. It is sickening.
And to think, the guys in my guild that /em lick and /em hump the women have no idea that about half of them are guys.
Strangely enough I know a good number of women who play male toons to avoid the above treatment.
My two level 60 characters are male for a variety of reasons -- avoiding unwelcome attention is one of them. My 57 shaman is female, but a Tauren, so... I get less attention in that vein.
My female Orc Hunter, though... *sigh*
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5446447 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 2:10:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. |
| |
Q u o t e:
Maybe "give advice" is incorrect, but how about "interact" in the "forum". =) Personally, the fact that Cay finds time and interest in the topic of gender confusion and identification is...well...freakin' hillarious.
And why is it hilarious to you?
I am not the Hunter representative.
I am a Community Manager, and I am set to manage the entire community. You don't think gender differentiation is a valid community topic? Perhaps it doesn't affect you, but I assert that this particular subject, in some regard, affects a large number of players in the game in some capacity. Now, how precisely they're affected can be varied, but to scoff at what is a pertinent and topical discussion regarding the game's community may be indicative of one not viewing the larger picture.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5447896 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 2:10:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Maybe "give advice" is incorrect, but how about "interact" in the "forum". =) Personally, the fact that Cay finds time and interest in the topic of gender confusion and identification is...well...freakin' hillarious.
And why is it hilarious to you?
I am not the Hunter representative.
I am a Community Manager, and I am set to manage the entire community. You don't think gender differentiation is a valid community topic? Perhaps it doesn't affect you, but I assert that this particular subject, in some regard, affects a large number of players in the game. Now, how precisely they're affected can be varied, but to scoff at what is a pertinent and topical discussion regarding the game's community may be indicative of one not viewing the larger picture.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5447896 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 2:53:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. |
| |
Q u o t e:
HOLY COW!! =) A reply from the Bull! If I thought sarcasm with a bit of spite and what some may consider humor would always get a reply, I would have tried it a long time ago.
Who, may I ask _is_ the hunter representative? Where is said mystery dwarf/elf/tauren? Certainly not posting for months at a time. If anyone's listening, there's no way for us to tell when you (the global you) never reply or post.
I find it hilarious because of the full scope of issues your user community has thrust upon them daily having to do with bugs in-game mechanics, gold farming, well thought out suggestions and serious questions, you chose to address a topic of virtual gender having _nothing_ to do with game play aside from perhaps RP servers.
While some may be interested (for reasons I can't understand, but that's me), I would bet my account that the Community you are tasked to Manage has more interest in gold farming, reported bugs, potential exploits (hunters in Maruadon?) and almost _any_ other topic than why boys chose girl gnomes and girls chose boy cows.
To have asked your question seriously and suggest that this is in any way interests any sizeable portion of your user base is quite cleary suggestive that you, not I, have missed the larger picture.
And lastly....I still love the game. =)
There are no class representatives. When we have information to share on the class forums, we do; when we don't, we still read them, gathering feedback. An absence of blue posts is not an absence of blue presence.
The issues you mention are, in order:
1) Gold farming: something we've commented on to the extent we're able to;
2) Reported bugs: handled by QA representatives on the Bug Report forum;
3) Potential exploits: commented on the particular issue you bring up when it first came up, to the extent we were able.
The reason why the particular subjects you bring up have not seen a great deal of "blue" attention is that they're controversial. There are some things we can't comment on. There are some things that require information that takes time to get. The "big issues" of World of Warcraft get responses when we're prepared to give them, and that preparation takes time.
So during that time, I am managing the community by encouraging civil discussion on a topic that does affect many people. Such posts require no prior approval and no deep research with the developers or QA. It doesn't interest you, personally, and there's nothing wrong with that; but to say that encouraging constructive discussion on a topic that does largely affect the community is laughable is to not fully understand what it is that I do.
I hope you understand a little better now. :)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5448633 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 3:58:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. |
| |
Q u o t e:
Cay, (since we're getting to know each other now =):
First, thank you for your replies...really, I mean it. They are the first I've ever seen and had the pleasure of getting real-time.
As for Blizzard not having dedicated, experienced, class reps -- I believe this is a failure on your part. You should have them. They may actually get to know their _community_ and get to relate in an ongoing, positive basis this way (or not...).
As for my picking on this particular topic to express my frustration, well, it was just what came up in the browser =). While controversial, and a part of the game's RP aspects especially, I just didn't see it stacking up against most of the other topics on the forums (yes, I agree, a lot of trash talking garbage, but we can all tell the difference between trolls, and an well reasoned post).
I also understand that some issues are "free" for your discussion and some are not for some reason relating to Blizzard's fear of something you Blues say coming back to hurt the Firm. I, however, do not believe this excuse (because it is an excuse) absolves you from your jobs of more frequent cross-posting interaction just like this. If Blue reads and never posts, how are we to know it?
There should be a dedicated class rep for each class forum. Really.
These reps should _post_ and _interact_ on the forums...not just read them.
I do understand a bit better, but I still do not feel Blizzard is going a good job with regards to these forums. You have room for improvement, and dedicated active reps is a good place to start.
Thanks...bye. =)
The eMail address to direct feedback regarding the Community Team is wowcmfeedback@blizzard.com. This eMail goes directly to my supervisor, and while he may not respond to everything he does read it all. I myself do not have the power to change what you're asking.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5449713 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 12:41:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. *edited post* |
| |
Indeed.
I fail to see why you term it a "problem". You are aware, of course, that there are females out there that play male characters as well?
Now, I would like you to clarify -- do you consider role playing as a whole an invalid reason for individuals choosing a gender different from their own, or merely that race doesn't factor into it? I disagree on both counts, but I'm interested in hearing your elaboration on why you feel it is irrelevant.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5445858 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 12:49:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Ok, I meant the root of the dispute, I never meant to say that it was a "problem" I meant to say that the fact that people used race as a counterarguement was a problem, missing the idea of the topic altogether. I mean no ill will to anyone.
Again, I disagree.
Each race in the game is designed differently. If they all had similar aesthetics, you might have a point, but as they all look very different and differ considerably from male to female, race choice is in fact a significant factor. The "well, I'm not an elf in real life, either" argument is frivolous, I'll agree, but it does touch on a very valid reason for choosing gender -- the act of playing a role. As such, it is part and parcel of the argument and isn't really separate at all.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5446035 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 12:53:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Actually Harry Potter is written in the 3rd person, not the first.
Nice try though.
You can write in third person and still be writing from a particular character's perspective. :)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5446145 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 1:04:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Not on my server. It is sickening.
And to think, the guys in my guild that /em lick and /em hump the women have no idea that about half of them are guys.
Strangely enough I know a good number of women who play male toons to avoid the above treatment.
My two level 60 characters are male for a variety of reasons -- avoiding unwelcome attention is one of them. My 57 shaman is female, but a Tauren, so... I get less attention in that vein.
My female Orc Hunter, though... *sigh*
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5446447 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 2:10:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Maybe "give advice" is incorrect, but how about "interact" in the "forum". =) Personally, the fact that Cay finds time and interest in the topic of gender confusion and identification is...well...freakin' hillarious.
And why is it hilarious to you?
I am not the Hunter representative.
I am a Community Manager, and I am set to manage the entire community. You don't think gender differentiation is a valid community topic? Perhaps it doesn't affect you, but I assert that this particular subject, in some regard, affects a large number of players in the game. Now, how precisely they're affected can be varied, but to scoff at what is a pertinent and topical discussion regarding the game's community may be indicative of one not viewing the larger picture.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5447896 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 2:53:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
HOLY COW!! =) A reply from the Bull! If I thought sarcasm with a bit of spite and what some may consider humor would always get a reply, I would have tried it a long time ago.
Who, may I ask _is_ the hunter representative? Where is said mystery dwarf/elf/tauren? Certainly not posting for months at a time. If anyone's listening, there's no way for us to tell when you (the global you) never reply or post.
I find it hilarious because of the full scope of issues your user community has thrust upon them daily having to do with bugs in-game mechanics, gold farming, well thought out suggestions and serious questions, you chose to address a topic of virtual gender having _nothing_ to do with game play aside from perhaps RP servers.
While some may be interested (for reasons I can't understand, but that's me), I would bet my account that the Community you are tasked to Manage has more interest in gold farming, reported bugs, potential exploits (hunters in Maruadon?) and almost _any_ other topic than why boys chose girl gnomes and girls chose boy cows.
To have asked your question seriously and suggest that this is in any way interests any sizeable portion of your user base is quite cleary suggestive that you, not I, have missed the larger picture.
And lastly....I still love the game. =)
There are no class representatives. When we have information to share on the class forums, we do; when we don't, we still read them, gathering feedback. An absence of blue posts is not an absence of blue presence.
The issues you mention are, in order:
1) Gold farming: something we've commented on to the extent we're able to;
2) Reported bugs: handled by QA representatives on the Bug Report forum;
3) Potential exploits: commented on the particular issue you bring up when it first came up, to the extent we were able.
The reason why the particular subjects you bring up have not seen a great deal of "blue" attention is that they're controversial. There are some things we can't comment on. There are some things that require information that takes time to get. The "big issues" of World of Warcraft get responses when we're prepared to give them, and that preparation takes time.
So during that time, I am managing the community by encouraging civil discussion on a topic that does affect many people. Such posts require no prior approval and no deep research with the developers or QA. It doesn't interest you, personally, and there's nothing wrong with that; but to say that encouraging constructive discussion on a topic that does largely affect the community is laughable is to not fully understand what it is that I do.
I hope you understand a little better now. :)
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5448633 |
Poster: Caydiem at 10/24/2005 3:58:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Race and the Gender issue. *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Cay, (since we're getting to know each other now =):
First, thank you for your replies...really, I mean it. They are the first I've ever seen and had the pleasure of getting real-time.
As for Blizzard not having dedicated, experienced, class reps -- I believe this is a failure on your part. You should have them. They may actually get to know their _community_ and get to relate in an ongoing, positive basis this way (or not...).
As for my picking on this particular topic to express my frustration, well, it was just what came up in the browser =). While controversial, and a part of the game's RP aspects especially, I just didn't see it stacking up against most of the other topics on the forums (yes, I agree, a lot of trash talking garbage, but we can all tell the difference between trolls, and an well reasoned post).
I also understand that some issues are "free" for your discussion and some are not for some reason relating to Blizzard's fear of something you Blues say coming back to hurt the Firm. I, however, do not believe this excuse (because it is an excuse) absolves you from your jobs of more frequent cross-posting interaction just like this. If Blue reads and never posts, how are we to know it?
There should be a dedicated class rep for each class forum. Really.
These reps should _post_ and _interact_ on the forums...not just read them.
I do understand a bit better, but I still do not feel Blizzard is going a good job with regards to these forums. You have room for improvement, and dedicated active reps is a good place to start.
Thanks...bye. =)
The eMail address to direct feedback regarding the Community Team is wowcmfeedback@blizzard.com. This eMail goes directly to my supervisor, and while he may not respond to everything he does read it all. I myself do not have the power to change what you're asking.
Carpe Caydiem.
Seize the Cay.
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5445764&p=#post5449713 |
