Poster: Curley at 10/8/2005 12:10:38 PM PDT
Subject: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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I am starting to see a lot of people wanting to trade accounts (for several reasons).
Currently there is no way to safely pass the account info between the two parties with 100% assurance that this is not just sort of scam.
I challange Blizzard to set up a system and act as a broker for people that want to TRADE (not sell) accounts.
Yes, people will still be able to sell their account moving the money with PayPal but... they are doing that now with the risk of some scumbag stealing an account. At least this way you will at least receive any account and have it completly in your name.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5217773 | | | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 12:25:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Please refer to the Terms of Service, where we specifically state that we do not condone account sharing or selling. I find it highly unlikely we will ever endorse the trading of accounts. As you said yourself, there is no way to safely pass the account information between the two parties with 100% assurance that this is not just a scam. In our current estimation, we don't think there should be a method with 100% assurance. Period.
In the rise of compromised accounts we are now seeing, I think your remarks lack an awareness of the current situation. Please refer to the stickies regarding account security, as you are leaving me with the impression that you might be vulnerable to an unfortunate event.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5217879 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 12:59:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Q u o t e:
You would think blizard is blind and stupid do they not see IGEs site and other site like it?
Are you well-versed in international law as it pertains to intellectual property? Can you tell me the specific EULA/ToS violations that a "gold farmer" is actually in breach of in-game? And I'm not talking about the "oh, well it's OBVIOUS they're farmers..." mentality. I'm talking about actual witnessed violation of specific articles in the ToS.
If you can answer either of those accurately and honestly, then I'm more than willing to allow your disrespectful attitude toward this company.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218179 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 1:17:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Q u o t e:
Tseric, can large sums of gold being mailed in-game be traced? Are there any ways of stopping farmers short of hearing them clearly admit to being sellers? The comments folks make about Blizzard being blind are easily fueled by what appears to be a hopeless situation.
If we clearly illustrated how we investigate gold farmers, wouldn't those companies then be able to plan an approach to circumvent our tactics? Do the FBI announce the fact they are engaging in sting operations on the news, to put people at ease? Or do they do their work unobtrusively and upon completion, announce results?
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218314 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 1:23:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Q u o t e:
what about the reports made to gms where you get a farmer, usually a rogue, that gets pissed off and aggro's a crap load of stuff and runs to you, then vanishes? till you leave? or the ones on the pve servers that flag pvp and stand on your corpses till you click on them(right click to loot is also default auto attack) flagging you and usually getting you killed by their "coop" of farmers that want the spot to themselves?
you can see it. same person logged in constantly except for 15 minutes at regular intervals; they're called SHIFT CHANGES. more than one player is playing the account, that alone is a tos violation: account sharing.
the griefing isnt avoidable. what if i'm trying to grind gold for an epic mount, and i find a decent spot that drops nice vendor trash. i'm not guilded, i dont have too many friends in game; i'm a loner. yes, you have this type playing this game. who am i going to call on for repeatedly being corpse camped and griefed by someone that wants me out of THEIR spot? THAT DOESNT SPEAK ENGLISH! I've tried asking the same faction ones to leave me alone a NUMBER of times and all i get is "you give gold leave" or "100 food k?" I'M NOT A MAGE. I'm NOT paying you to leave a spot thats open for EVERYONE to kill in. they dont OWN any of it.
you really need to do something about this bullcrap. its bad enough that you hit lvl 20 and want to get a few upgrades at the ah, you see nothing but 30g blue items and 3-5 g greens sold by some dumbarse named xiangpao.
FIX IT. you can do something about it. WE, the normal players, cannot.
This does not answer the specific question I asked. If corpse-camping was in breach of the ToS, many normal players would be affected. If non-english speaking players were targeted, again, many normal players would be affected.
And in regards to your last comment, we all have a part to play in this. To quote a famous cartoon of old, "knowing is half the battle".
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218359 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 1:52:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Q u o t e:
I am not the poster you qoute, but please allow me to try to answer:
1) That is easy - yes. 12 years experience in a technology licensing firm, I have worked in patenting and IP enforcement for our clients in over 30 countries.
2) Your TOS clearly states that the virtual property existing within your software is your property - and that has been enforced in the past in courts. The sites the original poster mentions are not violating IP laws, they are violating simple property law - they are selling what is, legally, not theirs. If nothing else, that constitutes fraud.
So that was easy. Now that those have been answered accurately and honestly, please "allow" me to elaborate why you do not deserve respect.
Your product has been sold to us under the premise of a plain, balanced, competitive field. Which you failed to provide.
Hide as much as you will behind your own legal ineptitude - the truth is, your company is unwilling to commit the resources necessary to make this environment free of cheaters - be it people purchasing gold or simply using third party hacks.
Provide what we pay for, and you will get respect. As of 8 months after release, you have failed in many different ways. To cite some:
- "monthly content updates"
- hero classes
- service stability
- stopping farmers and other forms of "cheating".
And yes, as a side note. I do not like being told by a CSR what he "allows". Please follow company policy - either way, the institution managing these forums "allows" something, or it does not. Key word being, "policy". YOU "allowing something" sounds like arbitrary decision making probably fueled by some sort of ego trip.
Edit- spelling.
I'm glad you have some experience in IP enforcement in various countries. Could you then explain the distinction between US copyright laws and, say, Hong Kong's (IGE has a subsidiary there). I never claimed to be an expert in international law, but as far as I know "simple property rights", as you call them, are quite different. I would like to hear your opinions on such a matter and, also, would like to stick to the point. Colluding the issue with your opinions on how we failed in every aspect you care to bring up gets us no closer to a constructive discussion of what I consider to be an important topic.
I am being blunt in this thread because I wish people to treat this matter seriously and put it into a context that is outside of the finger-pointing contest. Over and over I hear people say "Blizzard is failing it's players". You know what the reality is? Gold sellers are fueled by demand. If there were no gold buyers, there would be no gold sellers. Simple and unrealistic, yes I know, but true nonetheless. You and I have an opportunity to help the community with this issue, but if you would prefer to stick to the old "Blizzard sucks" mantra, so be it.
And on a final note, I am well within my rights to determine what is allowed on these forums. Access to this place is a priviledge not a right. Ego has nothing to do with it. I am trying to cultivate a serious and constructive discussion. It's my job. Comments of blindness and stupidity have no merit here. Did I delete his post? No. Did I suspend him for the comment? No. I treated him like and adult and allowed him to reconsider his actions. I am tough, but I am fair.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218603 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 2:03:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Consider this...
We have police to prevent crime, yet crime still exists. Why?
Is anybody familiar with the old dance hall/reggae song "Police and Thieves"? Most commonly known as being covered by the Clash.
If you haven't listened to it, I recommend it. Very pertinent to the discussion.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218712 | Poster: Coreiel at 10/8/2005 4:21:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Many of you seem to have missed what I view as the most important part of Tseric's posts on the subject of the secondary market, so I'm going to reiterate it here.
Q u o t e:
You know what the reality is? Gold sellers are fueled by demand. If there were no gold buyers, there would be no gold sellers. Simple and unrealistic, yes I know, but true nonetheless.
Please keep this in mind.[ post edited by Coreiel ]
Blizzard Forum Moderator
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5219693 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 5:51:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Thank's for coming back to this thread, Necromo. I was a little concerned you might have left in disgust with me. I find your points interesting and will do what I can to address them. To wit: ;)
Q u o t e:
But let me elaborate on what I meant, since it seems to me you misunderstood. When I meantioned "simple property rights" I meant to say that your issue does not fall under the realm of IP enforcement at all. Both countries you mention in your example recognize ownership of "virtual goods" and enforce the clauses related to ownership of said goods as stipulated within a licensing agreement. As far as I know, there should be no doubt in either legislative system that virtual goods produced while licensing your software (that is, while playing the game) are indeed your (Blizzard's) property.
Salient point. I, personally, have doubt as to the legal surity of such a thing, but that is neither here nor there.
Q u o t e:
At that point, the true enforcement issue falls well outside of the real of IP enforcement. What third party sellers are doing is not breaking a licensing agreement by unauthorized use of your product - while you could claim that, it would be much more difficult to prove.
Rather, where they break the law is in selling a product which is legally not theirs to sell - which is only marginally related to IP.
Again, good point. However, do you not see how the situation becomes more complicated as we now have expectations to "police" outside of the game? You have quite clearly stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) "gold farmers aren't really violating the ToS, but the company they work for is". This, to me, is an important distinction.
Q u o t e:
In addition, most transactions occur over Ebay, or with the help with PayPal, both companies based in the USA. Fraudolent transactions over US based intermediaries fall within the realm of US commercial law. You could stop sales over Ebay without even touching IP law with a ten foot pole, let alone international IP law.
Closing of accounts found for sale on a third-party auction site are not unfamiliar to us. People can submit links to our hacks team for investigation. Again, this becomes a policing issue out of game, requiring extra resources not devoted directly to the development or maintenance of World of Warcraft.
Q u o t e:
You mention that "You and I have the opportunity to help the community". Well, to be honest, I do not see that as my job. While I welcome the opportunity to lend my expertise, I pay for a service - and I am expecting this service to be provided regardless of my contribution.
If you wish to treat this experience as a simple paid transaction at a drive-thru window, that is your prerogative. I did not mean to suggest it was your job, it's my job. In doing my job, I wish to cultivate a sense of communtity and participation. Part of that involves empowering the players and letting them know what they can do. Take that for what you will.
Secondly, you make your contribution (monthly fee) and we provide you a service (access to realms and content). The main issue of this thread does not involve your point. If neither of us had responded to this thread, it wouldn't change the fact that service is provided.
Q u o t e:
On a side note - you are falling into a dangerous fallacy when claiming that "Gold sellers are fueled by demand. If there were no gold buyers, there would be no gold sellers". While your argument is valid, that does not give you the right to terminate your agreement with your entire customer base. Not only are honest players being put into a situation where they can not compete with cheaters (ultimately, thanks to your failure to enforce your own rules) - but now you use that as an argument as to why you do not enfore your ToS in first place? That is circular reasoning at its best.
Now, you are putting words into my mouth. I cited my own statement as "simple and unrealistic". How can you now claim I am using that as an arguement for not enforcing our ToS?
To say that honest players can not compete with cheaters is using selective judgement. I don't know any players working for gold selling companies who hit the battlegrounds, run MC raids, or seek out faction rewards. Most everybody knows that the winning gear to be had is Bind on Pick-up, which gold-sellers have absolutely no impact on. I am not sure I see where the fallacy is.
And to say we don't enforce our ToS when it comes to these organizations is simply uninformed. I wish I could elaborate on instances I have witnessed which have made dramatic improvements in this venue, but I don't believe I am at liberty. One of my bosses might get mad at me ;)
Q u o t e:
Even if every single other player out there bought gold, I would still hold you accountable for what you have sold me - a game in which such transactions do not occur. After all, I have never seen a police officer claim he/she would not enforce speed limits because everyone speeds, so everyone deserves to die anyhow...
I actually brought up a similar analogy, previously. A more apt analogy in this case would be "Do you blame the cops because crime exists? Would you stop funding police because crime might be on the rise?". It seems to me to be an over-simplification of an issue. I have no problem with you holding us accountable for some of this behavior, but we do take action against it. As you had previously mentioned that you don't feel it's your job, you present yourself as non-participatory, but demanding results. I think this attitude is distinctive to our culture, but I could be wrong.
Q u o t e:
As far as access to these forums being a privilege... it is an advertised feature of the game (access to a "large online community to meet fellow players and discuss the game", I believe, was the exact wording you used). A feature we pay for.
Are you sure that meant the forums? Because it could be argued that that is what the actual in game experience is. I'm not going to cite lines from the ToS or anything, but we reserve many rights as a company. As I said in my last reply to you, I'm a pretty fair guy...gotta long fuse. But there are bottom-line rules which can be invoked. Again, I do not mean this as any sort of threat, but it is part of the business agreement you signed off on.
As a closing point, I would like you to consider this. Before this game, this company could have been considered a "mom and pop" company. Wasn't terribly large as corporations go. Really, we still aren't. Sure we've grown, but we've done a lot of that growing to keep up with the unexpected success of this game (and for those of you who would claim, "I knew it would be big in beta!...yes, but how big? You don't run a company by banking on blockbuster success). You talk about the legal aspect of things, perhaps you know how long a court case like the ones you described might go on? Contrast that with how long this game has been available from release? Methinks there is a difference.
All in all, we're just a bunch of folks who want to provide the world with a good time. I'm sorry if you are not having a good time. We are doing everything we can to change that.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5220250 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 6:05:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Q u o t e:
Concerning the mom and pop company, and ulterior motives of Blizzard employees:
I found it interesting and fascinating that you, Blizzard, mostly hire people (as CM/GM/etc.) that care very strongly for this game. So the people involved may not be the most suave and smooth gamemasters etc. but they do love the game, and care very much for the game and its ambience.
This in itself is a very promising facet, which I think causes people at many levels withhin Blizzard to be focussed on to what they perceive as best for the game, and not only best for their stock options...
Darn tootin' :D
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5220335 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 6:36:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. |
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Q u o t e:
Normally I leave these threads well alone, but this point needed to be answered.
Tseric, as a member of the U.S. Intelligence community, I can say that as a matter of fact, yes, these things do get announced.
NOT to soothe the public. "The public" is by and large a blithering, vocal minority scared of both deus ex machina and the status quo.
Instead, it's to trigger a change in modus operandi or bluntly, to see who does what differently following the announcement.
You know how often it works? Often enough that it's done a lot when we're otherwise at a dead end.
Interesting point. I can't really say if the translation of such a tactic into the game would have similar results, but an intriguing notion nonetheless.
I would like to state that, with every time we make headway into the issue at hand, the other companies change tactics. Then, so do we, to once again approach a new situation. Back and forth we go, in an odd little dance.
MMOs as a genre havent been around that long. It probably doesn't stretch past 20 years. However, the genre has undergone considerable change in that time. What we are faced with here is moderating an online population of a magnitude heretofore not seen in the gaming industry. There is no rulebook for approaching this. Our work is cut out for us.
Thanks for jumping in where you might not normally tread. I, for one, benefitted from it.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5220618 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 6:36:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Normally I leave these threads well alone, but this point needed to be answered.
Tseric, as a member of the U.S. Intelligence community, I can say that as a matter of fact, yes, these things do get announced.
NOT to soothe the public. "The public" is by and large a blithering, vocal minority scared of both deus ex machina and the status quo.
Instead, it's to trigger a change in modus operandi or bluntly, to see who does what differently following the announcement.
You know how often it works? Often enough that it's done a lot when we're otherwise at a dead end.
Interesting point. I can't really say if the translation of such a tactic into the game would have similar results, but an intriguing notion nonetheless.
I would like to state that, with every time we make headway into the issue at hand, the other companies change tactics. Then, so do we, to once again approach a new situation. Back and forth we go, in an odd little dance.
MMOs as a genre havent been around that long. It probably doesn't stretch past 20 years. However, the genre has undergone considerable change in that time. What we are faced with here is moderating an online population of a magnitude heretofore not seen in the gaming industry. There is no rulebook for approaching this. Our work is cut out for us.
Thanks for jumping in where you might not normally tread. I, for one, benefitted from it.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5220618 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 12:25:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Please refer to the Terms of Service, where we specifically state that we do not condone account sharing or selling. I find it highly unlikely we will ever endorse the trading of accounts. As you said yourself, there is no way to safely pass the account information between the two parties with 100% assurance that this is not just a scam. In our current estimation, we don't think there should be a method with 100% assurance. Period.
In the rise of compromised accounts we are now seeing, I think your remarks lack an awareness of the current situation. Please refer to the stickies regarding account security, as you are leaving me with the impression that you might be vulnerable to an unfortunate event.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5217879 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 12:59:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
You would think blizard is blind and stupid do they not see IGEs site and other site like it?
Are you well-versed in international law as it pertains to intellectual property? Can you tell me the specific EULA/ToS violations that a "gold farmer" is actually in breach of in-game? And I'm not talking about the "oh, well it's OBVIOUS they're farmers..." mentality. I'm talking about actual witnessed violation of specific articles in the ToS.
If you can answer either of those accurately and honestly, then I'm more than willing to allow your disrespectful attitude toward this company.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218179 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 1:17:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Tseric, can large sums of gold being mailed in-game be traced? Are there any ways of stopping farmers short of hearing them clearly admit to being sellers? The comments folks make about Blizzard being blind are easily fueled by what appears to be a hopeless situation.
If we clearly illustrated how we investigate gold farmers, wouldn't those companies then be able to plan an approach to circumvent our tactics? Do the FBI announce the fact they are engaging in sting operations on the news, to put people at ease? Or do they do their work unobtrusively and upon completion, announce results?
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218314 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 1:23:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
what about the reports made to gms where you get a farmer, usually a rogue, that gets pissed off and aggro's a crap load of stuff and runs to you, then vanishes? till you leave? or the ones on the pve servers that flag pvp and stand on your corpses till you click on them(right click to loot is also default auto attack) flagging you and usually getting you killed by their "coop" of farmers that want the spot to themselves?
you can see it. same person logged in constantly except for 15 minutes at regular intervals; they're called SHIFT CHANGES. more than one player is playing the account, that alone is a tos violation: account sharing.
the griefing isnt avoidable. what if i'm trying to grind gold for an epic mount, and i find a decent spot that drops nice vendor trash. i'm not guilded, i dont have too many friends in game; i'm a loner. yes, you have this type playing this game. who am i going to call on for repeatedly being corpse camped and griefed by someone that wants me out of THEIR spot? THAT DOESNT SPEAK ENGLISH! I've tried asking the same faction ones to leave me alone a NUMBER of times and all i get is "you give gold leave" or "100 food k?" I'M NOT A MAGE. I'm NOT paying you to leave a spot thats open for EVERYONE to kill in. they dont OWN any of it.
you really need to do something about this bullcrap. its bad enough that you hit lvl 20 and want to get a few upgrades at the ah, you see nothing but 30g blue items and 3-5 g greens sold by some dumbarse named xiangpao.
FIX IT. you can do something about it. WE, the normal players, cannot.
This does not answer the specific question I asked. If corpse-camping was in breach of the ToS, many normal players would be affected. If non-english speaking players were targeted, again, many normal players would be affected.
And in regards to your last comment, we all have a part to play in this. To quote a famous cartoon of old, "knowing is half the battle".
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218359 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 1:52:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
I am not the poster you qoute, but please allow me to try to answer:
1) That is easy - yes. 12 years experience in a technology licensing firm, I have worked in patenting and IP enforcement for our clients in over 30 countries.
2) Your TOS clearly states that the virtual property existing within your software is your property - and that has been enforced in the past in courts. The sites the original poster mentions are not violating IP laws, they are violating simple property law - they are selling what is, legally, not theirs. If nothing else, that constitutes fraud.
So that was easy. Now that those have been answered accurately and honestly, please "allow" me to elaborate why you do not deserve respect.
Your product has been sold to us under the premise of a plain, balanced, competitive field. Which you failed to provide.
Hide as much as you will behind your own legal ineptitude - the truth is, your company is unwilling to commit the resources necessary to make this environment free of cheaters - be it people purchasing gold or simply using third party hacks.
Provide what we pay for, and you will get respect. As of 8 months after release, you have failed in many different ways. To cite some:
- "monthly content updates"
- hero classes
- service stability
- stopping farmers and other forms of "cheating".
And yes, as a side note. I do not like being told by a CSR what he "allows". Please follow company policy - either way, the institution managing these forums "allows" something, or it does not. Key word being, "policy". YOU "allowing something" sounds like arbitrary decision making probably fueled by some sort of ego trip.
Edit- spelling.
I'm glad you have some experience in IP enforcement in various countries. Could you then explain the distinction between US copyright laws and, say, Hong Kong's (IGE has a subsidiary there). I never claimed to be an expert in international law, but as far as I know "simple property rights", as you call them, are quite different. I would like to hear your opinions on such a matter and, also, would like to stick to the point. Colluding the issue with your opinions on how we failed in every aspect you care to bring up gets us no closer to a constructive discussion of what I consider to be an important topic.
I am being blunt in this thread because I wish people to treat this matter seriously and put it into a context that is outside of the finger-pointing contest. Over and over I hear people say "Blizzard is failing it's players". You know what the reality is? Gold sellers are fueled by demand. If there were no gold buyers, there would be no gold sellers. Simple and unrealistic, yes I know, but true nonetheless. You and I have an opportunity to help the community with this issue, but if you would prefer to stick to the old "Blizzard sucks" mantra, so be it.
And on a final note, I am well within my rights to determine what is allowed on these forums. Access to this place is a priviledge not a right. Ego has nothing to do with it. I am trying to cultivate a serious and constructive discussion. It's my job. Comments of blindness and stupidity have no merit here. Did I delete his post? No. Did I suspend him for the comment? No. I treated him like and adult and allowed him to reconsider his actions. I am tough, but I am fair.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218603 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 2:03:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Consider this...
We have police to prevent crime, yet crime still exists. Why?
Is anybody familiar with the old dance hall/reggae song "Police and Thieves"? Most commonly known as being covered by the Clash.
If you haven't listened to it, I recommend it. Very pertinent to the discussion.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5218712 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 5:51:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Thank's for coming back to this thread, Necromo. I was a little concerned you might have left in disgust with me. I find your points interesting and will do what I can to address them. To wit: ;)
Q u o t e:
But let me elaborate on what I meant, since it seems to me you misunderstood. When I meantioned "simple property rights" I meant to say that your issue does not fall under the realm of IP enforcement at all. Both countries you mention in your example recognize ownership of "virtual goods" and enforce the clauses related to ownership of said goods as stipulated within a licensing agreement. As far as I know, there should be no doubt in either legislative system that virtual goods produced while licensing your software (that is, while playing the game) are indeed your (Blizzard's) property.
Salient point. I, personally, have doubt as to the legal surity of such a thing, but that is neither here nor there.
Q u o t e:
At that point, the true enforcement issue falls well outside of the real of IP enforcement. What third party sellers are doing is not breaking a licensing agreement by unauthorized use of your product - while you could claim that, it would be much more difficult to prove.
Rather, where they break the law is in selling a product which is legally not theirs to sell - which is only marginally related to IP.
Again, good point. However, do you not see how the situation becomes more complicated as we now have expectations to "police" outside of the game? You have quite clearly stated (and I'm paraphrasing here) "gold farmers aren't really violating the ToS, but the company they work for is". This, to me, is an important distinction.
Q u o t e:
In addition, most transactions occur over Ebay, or with the help with PayPal, both companies based in the USA. Fraudolent transactions over US based intermediaries fall within the realm of US commercial law. You could stop sales over Ebay without even touching IP law with a ten foot pole, let alone international IP law.
Closing of accounts found for sale on a third-party auction site are not unfamiliar to us. People can submit links to our hacks team for investigation. Again, this becomes a policing issue out of game, requiring extra resources not devoted directly to the development or maintenance of World of Warcraft.
Q u o t e:
You mention that "You and I have the opportunity to help the community". Well, to be honest, I do not see that as my job. While I welcome the opportunity to lend my expertise, I pay for a service - and I am expecting this service to be provided regardless of my contribution.
If you wish to treat this experience as a simple paid transaction at a drive-thru window, that is your prerogative. I did not mean to suggest it was your job, it's my job. In doing my job, I wish to cultivate a sense of communtity and participation. Part of that involves empowering the players and letting them know what they can do. Take that for what you will.
Secondly, you make your contribution (monthly fee) and we provide you a service (access to realms and content). The main issue of this thread does not involve your point. If neither of us had responded to this thread, it wouldn't change the fact that service is provided.
Q u o t e:
On a side note - you are falling into a dangerous fallacy when claiming that "Gold sellers are fueled by demand. If there were no gold buyers, there would be no gold sellers". While your argument is valid, that does not give you the right to terminate your agreement with your entire customer base. Not only are honest players being put into a situation where they can not compete with cheaters (ultimately, thanks to your failure to enforce your own rules) - but now you use that as an argument as to why you do not enfore your ToS in first place? That is circular reasoning at its best.
Now, you are putting words into my mouth. I cited my own statement as "simple and unrealistic". How can you now claim I am using that as an arguement for not enforcing our ToS?
To say that honest players can not compete with cheaters is using selective judgement. I don't know any players working for gold selling companies who hit the battlegrounds, run MC raids, or seek out faction rewards. Most everybody knows that the winning gear to be had is Bind on Pick-up, which gold-sellers have absolutely no impact on. I am not sure I see where the fallacy is.
And to say we don't enforce our ToS when it comes to these organizations is simply uninformed. I wish I could elaborate on instances I have witnessed which have made dramatic improvements in this venue, but I don't believe I am at liberty. One of my bosses might get mad at me ;)
Q u o t e:
Even if every single other player out there bought gold, I would still hold you accountable for what you have sold me - a game in which such transactions do not occur. After all, I have never seen a police officer claim he/she would not enforce speed limits because everyone speeds, so everyone deserves to die anyhow...
I actually brought up a similar analogy, previously. A more apt analogy in this case would be "Do you blame the cops because crime exists? Would you stop funding police because crime might be on the rise?". It seems to me to be an over-simplification of an issue. I have no problem with you holding us accountable for some of this behavior, but we do take action against it. As you had previously mentioned that you don't feel it's your job, you present yourself as non-participatory, but demanding results. I think this attitude is distinctive to our culture, but I could be wrong.
Q u o t e:
As far as access to these forums being a privilege... it is an advertised feature of the game (access to a "large online community to meet fellow players and discuss the game", I believe, was the exact wording you used). A feature we pay for.
Are you sure that meant the forums? Because it could be argued that that is what the actual in game experience is. I'm not going to cite lines from the ToS or anything, but we reserve many rights as a company. As I said in my last reply to you, I'm a pretty fair guy...gotta long fuse. But there are bottom-line rules which can be invoked. Again, I do not mean this as any sort of threat, but it is part of the business agreement you signed off on.
As a closing point, I would like you to consider this. Before this game, this company could have been considered a "mom and pop" company. Wasn't terribly large as corporations go. Really, we still aren't. Sure we've grown, but we've done a lot of that growing to keep up with the unexpected success of this game (and for those of you who would claim, "I knew it would be big in beta!...yes, but how big? You don't run a company by banking on blockbuster success). You talk about the legal aspect of things, perhaps you know how long a court case like the ones you described might go on? Contrast that with how long this game has been available from release? Methinks there is a difference.
All in all, we're just a bunch of folks who want to provide the world with a good time. I'm sorry if you are not having a good time. We are doing everything we can to change that.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5220250 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 6:05:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Concerning the mom and pop company, and ulterior motives of Blizzard employees:
I found it interesting and fascinating that you, Blizzard, mostly hire people (as CM/GM/etc.) that care very strongly for this game. So the people involved may not be the most suave and smooth gamemasters etc. but they do love the game, and care very much for the game and its ambience.
This in itself is a very promising facet, which I think causes people at many levels withhin Blizzard to be focussed on to what they perceive as best for the game, and not only best for their stock options...
Darn tootin' :D
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5220335 | Poster: Tseric at 10/8/2005 6:36:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Trading accounts and Blizz. *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
Normally I leave these threads well alone, but this point needed to be answered.
Tseric, as a member of the U.S. Intelligence community, I can say that as a matter of fact, yes, these things do get announced.
NOT to soothe the public. "The public" is by and large a blithering, vocal minority scared of both deus ex machina and the status quo.
Instead, it's to trigger a change in modus operandi or bluntly, to see who does what differently following the announcement.
You know how often it works? Often enough that it's done a lot when we're otherwise at a dead end.
Interesting point. I can't really say if the translation of such a tactic into the game would have similar results, but an intriguing notion nonetheless.
I would like to state that, with every time we make headway into the issue at hand, the other companies change tactics. Then, so do we, to once again approach a new situation. Back and forth we go, in an odd little dance.
MMOs as a genre havent been around that long. It probably doesn't stretch past 20 years. However, the genre has undergone considerable change in that time. What we are faced with here is moderating an online population of a magnitude heretofore not seen in the gaming industry. There is no rulebook for approaching this. Our work is cut out for us.
Thanks for jumping in where you might not normally tread. I, for one, benefitted from it.
Do you see the forest or the trees?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5217773&p=#post5220618 |
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