Poster: Chao at 9/7/2005 10:43:25 AM PDT
Subject: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
In addition to those new areas, we'll also be adding some outright terrifying world raid encounters. Along with Azuregos and Lord Kazzak, the names of four green dragons—Ysondre, Lethon, Emeriss, and Taerar—will come to be feared throughout Azeroth.
Anyone who's read the lore knows that dragons, with the exception of the Black Dragonflight, are good guys, not bad guys. Do the devs not know this? Or have they run out of ideas?
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4783119 |
| |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 11:37:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Considering Chris Metzen, the individual who wrote the lore in the first place, is closely involved with everything implemented into the game, perhaps the question should be instead "Why is it that these green dragons differ from the legends I've heard of their dragonflight?" :P
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784033 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 11:48:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
Ok, that's a fair question too. Care to answer it?
By the way, has any explanation been given as to why Azuregos is a "bad guy"? There's no sign of any blue flight being corrupted — in fact, the blue flight forges your Onyxia key (at least as Alliance).
I'm a proud Orc. Hey! Why do these Blackrock Orcs attack me?!
I'm a noble Tauren. Hey! Why are the Grimtotem hostile?!
I'm an honorable Human. Hey! Why are the Scarlet Crusade chasing me from their monastery?!
I'm an all-powerful Aspect. Hey! Why's my fellow Aspect turning against me?!
Intelligent creatures can have differing views from what you feel is the norm for their kind.
In Azuregos' case -- this is speculation from a loremonger, not canon -- remember that the Blue Dragonflight is out to hoard powerful artifacts away from mortals, as they misuse them and can bring about ruin should they use them.
Say, what is it people fight Azuregos -- or anything else, high-end -- for, again? :P He's neutral until he's attacked.
As for my original question, no, I'm not going to answer it; that's for you to discover.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784261 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 11:58:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
Honestly now... As soon as they put Orcs/Tauren and Forsaken together they broke lore forever. Any Orc can walk right up to the dreadlord near Silvanis, and we're all suppose to make believe Thrall doesn't know he's there.
Where precisely does it say that Thrall is unaware of Varimathras' presence?
Where precisely does it say that Thrall trusts Sylvanas implicitly?
Where precisely does it say that the alliance between the Forsaken and the rest of the Horde is a strong fellowship and not an uneasy, tenuous alliance of convenience at best?
I may have missed the memo. :/
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784441 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:00:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
1) Rend vs. Thrall in an anything goes fight to the finish.
2) I always thought the old hag Grimtotem in Thunder Bluff was up to something. All the Grimtotem are planning something... devious.
3) lashkdf there's no such thing as an honorable human! Except for Scarlet Crusade. If you are not one of them, you are an undead lover.
4) I don't know much about Aspects, but it sounds like mages. And anyone who knows the history of mages is that they're alreays trying to kill each other from their Towers of Solitude.
5) And yeah, Azuregos is the one being attacked by Horde and Alliance alike. And for what? Shinies? That's going to piss the dragons off.
The Aspects are the five Dragons - Alexstrasza, Ysera, Nozdormu, Malygos, and Neltharion. Neltharion, known as Deathwing, turned against 'em.
And I know the answers -- I was merely proving that these apparent discrepencies are in fact the behavior throughout, and one race does not necessarily have to act with one mind.
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784493 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:03:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
The Old Gods have been tampering with the Emerald Dream. In fact, the Old Gods are using Sargeras (although he's not aware of this) as a puppet. If Archimonde succeeded in wtfpwning the World Tree, then the Old Gods would have been freed.
Deathwing, incase some of you didn't know, is still alive and the reason he went insane in the War of the Ancients is cause the Old Gods gained control of him.
Although, we are forgetting thed red dragons and why for some reason near Grom'gol they are attacking you.
Do you mean Grim Batol?
You should read up on the history of that place.. there may well be reason that people are attacked by the red dragons surrounding that area. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784538 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:15:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
*GASP* I got a blue response! Thanks for the correction, Cay
So the dragons are crazy because that evil queen mage dwarf lady Modgud puny magics (compared to dragons) are what has tainted teh red dragons there?
Er.
You should read the history of what happened to the Red Dragonflight there. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784779 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:39:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Why does Thrall need to go himself when he has a Horde of followers to do it for him, precisely?
He has a nest of snakes in his own home; it's best not to go gallivanting about when that's the case.
What does Thrall do besides "bathing people in his might"? Simple:
* He mobilizes young members of the Horde to investigate the Burning Blade problem within Orgrimmar itself, and weaken their forces;
* Upon receiving information from his forces previously imprisoned in Blackrock Depths, he works on increasing the relations with -- of all people -- the Dwarves in the Eastern Kingdoms by getting troops to free their princess from the clutches of the Dark Iron Emperor;
* He grandly rewards the mighty Horde warriors that cut down the false Warchief, Rend Blackhand.
Let's face it, being Warchief of the Horde, with a huge population and many points of civilization, leaves little time for Thrall himself to be adventuring. He's at the center of a massive web, and he needs to manage each and every string.
Now, regarding the whole "shamans and druids doing the forsaken quests" bit...
Let me relay a story to you.
Now, there was a certain immersive RPG out a few years ago in which you could do a great many things.
Everyone knew that the best way to get items and/or money was to filch the items right out from under the nose of the merchant. A great number of players did it, because hey, more money; it helped them get ahead.
I didn't.
I was playing a noble character, one that wouldn't dream of stealing anything from a hardworking merchant. And I didn't. I found my money through other means, I advanced, and I didn't really hurt my character by doing so, but I didn't take the easy way because I felt that the character was more important.
To bring this back to World of Warcraft...
It's entirely possible to do quests as an Orc Shaman or Tauren Druid without touching the Forsaken quests as you level. Nothing is preventing you from doing so, just as nothing was preventing me from not stealing. The Forsaken quests can be quite dastardly. There's also nothing preventing one from being a more callous Shaman that agrees with some of the Forsaken ideals. Think all Druids are without flaw? Ask Night Elves about Staghelm. The option is there to side with the Forsaken, or not, as is your wont.
And I do know players who refuse to do their quests or raise their reputation with the Undercity if at all possible. I think that's fabulous.
Of course, if you don't care about lore, this is all moot; the gameplay is there for you, so have at. :)
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4785295 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:43:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
I would say the devs fall into this category.
And you would be incorrect.
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4785394 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:55:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
Then why have they contradicted and neglected so much? The answer is not "It will be revealed to you if you seek the answer." It's "Because we wanted to balance the gameplay" or "We copied (insert successful MMORPG here)."
While I saw your earlier post, could you list the direct contradictions, rather than including things about which you're simply confused?
I'll happily address what I can, but just as an aside...
How successful do you believe the Lord of the Rings movies would have been had they been a completely direct adaptation straight from the book? Tolkien's writing is certainly a complex piece of work, but it wouldn't necessarily captivate on screen, as movies are an entirely different beast.
The same is true of MMOs.
I noticed you listed females of certain races being seen now when they weren't before, for example. That's the difference between an RTS and an RPG. I'm a loremonger; I love delving into a game world and understanding all its secrets, to know the history and the reasons behind why things are what they are.
At the same time, I do understand that a game needs to make sense mechanics-wise as well. Now, understand that I've written lore for games in the past. When creating a game, if the mechanics clash directly with something in the lore, it is easier -- and smarter -- to give a reason why that discrepency exists in lore rather than change the mechanic to be faithful and potentially ruin an aspect of the game.
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4785648 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 1:01:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
Pardon the attitude here, but your excuse is "We're not breaking lore as long as you ignore the parts that are wrong."
From my understanding, Shamans, by definition can not retain their power if they aspire to damage the land- Their power isn't enslaved such as Warlocks use, theirs is granted to them by the elements. In Shaman quests, they don't BEAT UP the elements, they beg their favor.
Isn't this the reason why Orc Shamans didn't exist in early Warcraft games? The Orcs had lost their roots in shamanism in favor of demonic power?
It wasn't that the spirits had forsaken them, to my knowledge, but rather the demonic bloodlust drove them into a murderous, warmongering frenzy.
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4785777 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 1:21:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
Would it really have ruined the game to have all male dwarves? To only let females Shadowmeld? To make warlocks shunned from some of the major cities? There's a lot of mechanics that were put into place to create balance, and in the process came sterility.
Er...
All of these are decisions made in favor of both mechanics and, believe it or not, a more balanced and understandable world. You may not agree with them, but remember the following:
1) Baby Dwarves come from somewhere, and it's the same process that makes baby Humans. That requires females. As Dwarves are a hardy race, there's no reason why female Dwarves shouldn't be adventurers; just because you haven't seen them in the past does not mean they didn't exist or they weren't adventuring, even. The previous games take place on the battlefield only; in World of Warcraft, there are many skirmishes with factions close to home.
2) Warlocks are a hidden society in the Alliance cities. In Stormwind, they're located in the basement of a bar. In Ironforge, they're in the Forlorn Cavern, a place of shady dealings. In Orgimmar, they're kept under Thrall's close eye, and in the Undercity, well, the Forsaken are so inextricably tied with the demons, whether they like it or not, that I hardly believe Sylvanas would disallow using their own power against them. Ask a guard in Orgrimmar about the Warlock trainer sometime; he won't be happy with you. The general outlook is one of distaste, but they're not outright banned; they do provide power to the armies of these people. And when one is trying to rebuild from a time of war, when fights are breaking out on all sides... why would you make an enemy in your own ranks, that knows your people and your defenses well enough to undermine them? That's pure folly.
Now, Cairne refuses to have a Warlock trainer in his midst. He reluctantly allows the Forsaken to stay in the Cavern under Spirit Rise, but no tamer of demons has been allowed to set up shop in Thunder Bluff.
You don't believe that Warlocks should be allowed in cities. The city leaders respectfully disagree with you. It's supported by lore, whether or not you agree with it.
3) The Shadowmeld mechanic is the only thing that goes directly against another mechanic of past Warcrafts; it's a balance issue in World of Warcraft where it was not in Warcraft 3. I can give you any number of reasons, however. Since the Archimonde event, when Night Elves became mortal, perhaps the men felt that they needed more protection in this ever-more threatening world, and trained with the women of the Night Elf society to hide in shadows as they do. Time has passed since Warcraft 3, enough for such a thing to occur.
I don't see the sterility you claim is there. I see a rich world with plenty of lore and history, complex, lore-founded motivations behind mechanics you claim are in error, and a wonderful world to explore.
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4786252 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 1:21:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Would it really have ruined the game to have all male dwarves? To only let females Shadowmeld? To make warlocks shunned from some of the major cities? There's a lot of mechanics that were put into place to create balance, and in the process came sterility.
Er...
All of these are decisions made in favor of both mechanics and, believe it or not, a more balanced and understandable world. You may not agree with them, but remember the following:
1) Baby Dwarves come from somewhere, and it's the same process that makes baby Humans. That requires females. As Dwarves are a hardy race, there's no reason why female Dwarves shouldn't be adventurers; just because you haven't seen them in the past does not mean they didn't exist or they weren't adventuring, even. The previous games take place on the battlefield only; in World of Warcraft, there are many skirmishes with factions close to home.
2) Warlocks are a hidden society in the Alliance cities. In Stormwind, they're located in the basement of a bar. In Ironforge, they're in the Forlorn Cavern, a place of shady dealings. In Orgimmar, they're kept under Thrall's close eye, and in the Undercity, well, the Forsaken are so inextricably tied with the demons, whether they like it or not, that I hardly believe Sylvanas would disallow using their own power against them. Ask a guard in Orgrimmar about the Warlock trainer sometime; he won't be happy with you. The general outlook is one of distaste, but they're not outright banned; they do provide power to the armies of these people. And when one is trying to rebuild from a time of war, when fights are breaking out on all sides... why would you make an enemy in your own ranks, that knows your people and your defenses well enough to undermine them? That's pure folly.
Now, Cairne refuses to have a Warlock trainer in his midst. He reluctantly allows the Forsaken to stay in the Cavern under Spirit Rise, but no tamer of demons has been allowed to set up shop in Thunder Bluff. I certainly don't see those who follow demonic practices being given a place to call home in Darnassus, either. They're tolerated when passing through, barely.
You don't believe that Warlocks should be allowed in cities. The city leaders respectfully disagree with you. It's supported by lore, whether or not you agree with it.
3) The Shadowmeld mechanic is the only thing that goes directly against another mechanic of past Warcrafts; it's a balance issue in World of Warcraft where it was not in Warcraft 3. I can give you any number of reasons, however. Since the Archimonde event, when Night Elves became mortal, perhaps the men felt that they needed more protection in this ever-more threatening world, and trained with the women of the Night Elf society to hide in shadows as they do. Time has passed since Warcraft 3, enough for such a thing to occur.
I don't see the sterility you claim is there. I see a rich world with plenty of lore and history, complex, lore-founded motivations behind mechanics you claim are in error, and a wonderful world to explore.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4786252 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 1:33:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
Unfortunately Caydiem ...... if he had posed the question as you stated above .... you most likely would not have answered .... huh?
You bothered to reply and poke at his attempt at the question ... but you didn't even both to answer. Yeah ... he could have asked differently/less aggressive but you also could have actually answered.
I am a firm believer in not giving spoilers, and rather letting players discover for themselves the whys and wherefores. He challenged us by saying we didn't understand the lore. I responded to it saying we understood just fine, and there might well be a reason why these aren't behaving in the way he thinks they should.
That's the basics of both posts. The original poster understood that meaning. I appreciate you coming here to defend him, but that's really not necessary. :P
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4786522 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 1:39:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? |
| |
Q u o t e:
Actually, the game itself shows you that the alliance between the forsaken and the rest of the horde it a VERY tenuous one. Just look at the reputations when you first create your horde character.
I don't think you read that statement of mine fully. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4786637 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 11:37:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Considering Chris Metzen, the individual who wrote the lore in the first place, is closely involved with everything implemented into the game, perhaps the question should be instead "Why is it that these green dragons differ from the legends I've heard of their dragonflight?" :P
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784033 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 11:48:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Ok, that's a fair question too. Care to answer it?
By the way, has any explanation been given as to why Azuregos is a "bad guy"? There's no sign of any blue flight being corrupted — in fact, the blue flight forges your Onyxia key (at least as Alliance).
I'm a proud Orc. Hey! Why do these Blackrock Orcs attack me?!
I'm a noble Tauren. Hey! Why are the Grimtotem hostile?!
I'm an honorable Human. Hey! Why are the Scarlet Crusade chasing me from their monastery?!
I'm an all-powerful Aspect. Hey! Why's my fellow Aspect turning against me?!
Intelligent creatures can have differing views from what you feel is the norm for their kind.
In Azuregos' case -- this is speculation from a loremonger, not canon -- remember that the Blue Dragonflight is out to hoard powerful artifacts away from mortals, as they misuse them and can bring about ruin should they use them.
Say, what is it people fight Azuregos -- or anything else, high-end -- for, again? :P He's neutral until he's attacked.
As for my original question, no, I'm not going to answer it; that's for you to discover.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784261 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 11:58:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Honestly now... As soon as they put Orcs/Tauren and Forsaken together they broke lore forever. Any Orc can walk right up to the dreadlord near Silvanis, and we're all suppose to make believe Thrall doesn't know he's there.
Where precisely does it say that Thrall is unaware of Varimathras' presence?
Where precisely does it say that Thrall trusts Sylvanas implicitly?
Where precisely does it say that the alliance between the Forsaken and the rest of the Horde is a strong fellowship and not an uneasy, tenuous alliance of convenience at best?
I may have missed the memo. :/
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784441 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:00:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
1) Rend vs. Thrall in an anything goes fight to the finish.
2) I always thought the old hag Grimtotem in Thunder Bluff was up to something. All the Grimtotem are planning something... devious.
3) lashkdf there's no such thing as an honorable human! Except for Scarlet Crusade. If you are not one of them, you are an undead lover.
4) I don't know much about Aspects, but it sounds like mages. And anyone who knows the history of mages is that they're alreays trying to kill each other from their Towers of Solitude.
5) And yeah, Azuregos is the one being attacked by Horde and Alliance alike. And for what? Shinies? That's going to piss the dragons off.
The Aspects are the five Dragons - Alexstrasza, Ysera, Nozdormu, Malygos, and Neltharion. Neltharion, known as Deathwing, turned against 'em.
And I know the answers -- I was merely proving that these apparent discrepencies are in fact the behavior throughout, and one race does not necessarily have to act with one mind.
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784493 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:03:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
The Old Gods have been tampering with the Emerald Dream. In fact, the Old Gods are using Sargeras (although he's not aware of this) as a puppet. If Archimonde succeeded in wtfpwning the World Tree, then the Old Gods would have been freed.
Deathwing, incase some of you didn't know, is still alive and the reason he went insane in the War of the Ancients is cause the Old Gods gained control of him.
Although, we are forgetting thed red dragons and why for some reason near Grom'gol they are attacking you.
Do you mean Grim Batol?
You should read up on the history of that place.. there may well be reason that people are attacked by the red dragons surrounding that area. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784538 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:15:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
*GASP* I got a blue response! Thanks for the correction, Cay
So the dragons are crazy because that evil queen mage dwarf lady Modgud puny magics (compared to dragons) are what has tainted teh red dragons there?
Er.
You should read the history of what happened to the Red Dragonflight there. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4784779 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:39:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Why does Thrall need to go himself when he has a Horde of followers to do it for him, precisely?
He has a nest of snakes in his own home; it's best not to go gallivanting about when that's the case.
What does Thrall do besides "bathing people in his might"? Simple:
* He mobilizes young members of the Horde to investigate the Burning Blade problem within Orgrimmar itself, and weaken their forces;
* Upon receiving information from his forces previously imprisoned in Blackrock Depths, he works on increasing the relations with -- of all people -- the Dwarves in the Eastern Kingdoms by getting troops to free their princess from the clutches of the Dark Iron Emperor;
* He grandly rewards the mighty Horde warriors that cut down the false Warchief, Rend Blackhand.
Let's face it, being Warchief of the Horde, with a huge population and many points of civilization, leaves little time for Thrall himself to be adventuring. He's at the center of a massive web, and he needs to manage each and every string.
Now, regarding the whole "shamans and druids doing the forsaken quests" bit...
Let me relay a story to you.
Now, there was a certain immersive RPG out a few years ago in which you could do a great many things.
Everyone knew that the best way to get items and/or money was to filch the items right out from under the nose of the merchant. A great number of players did it, because hey, more money; it helped them get ahead.
I didn't.
I was playing a noble character, one that wouldn't dream of stealing anything from a hardworking merchant. And I didn't. I found my money through other means, I advanced, and I didn't really hurt my character by doing so, but I didn't take the easy way because I felt that the character was more important.
To bring this back to World of Warcraft...
It's entirely possible to do quests as an Orc Shaman or Tauren Druid without touching the Forsaken quests as you level. Nothing is preventing you from doing so, just as nothing was preventing me from not stealing. The Forsaken quests can be quite dastardly. There's also nothing preventing one from being a more callous Shaman that agrees with some of the Forsaken ideals. Think all Druids are without flaw? Ask Night Elves about Staghelm. The option is there to side with the Forsaken, or not, as is your wont.
And I do know players who refuse to do their quests or raise their reputation with the Undercity if at all possible. I think that's fabulous.
Of course, if you don't care about lore, this is all moot; the gameplay is there for you, so have at. :)
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4785295 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:43:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
I would say the devs fall into this category.
And you would be incorrect.
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4785394 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 12:55:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Then why have they contradicted and neglected so much? The answer is not "It will be revealed to you if you seek the answer." It's "Because we wanted to balance the gameplay" or "We copied (insert successful MMORPG here)."
While I saw your earlier post, could you list the direct contradictions, rather than including things about which you're simply confused?
I'll happily address what I can, but just as an aside...
How successful do you believe the Lord of the Rings movies would have been had they been a completely direct adaptation straight from the book? Tolkien's writing is certainly a complex piece of work, but it wouldn't necessarily captivate on screen, as movies are an entirely different beast.
The same is true of MMOs.
I noticed you listed females of certain races being seen now when they weren't before, for example. That's the difference between an RTS and an RPG. I'm a loremonger; I love delving into a game world and understanding all its secrets, to know the history and the reasons behind why things are what they are.
At the same time, I do understand that a game needs to make sense mechanics-wise as well. Now, understand that I've written lore for games in the past. When creating a game, if the mechanics clash directly with something in the lore, it is easier -- and smarter -- to give a reason why that discrepency exists in lore rather than change the mechanic to be faithful and potentially ruin an aspect of the game.
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4785648 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 1:01:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Pardon the attitude here, but your excuse is "We're not breaking lore as long as you ignore the parts that are wrong."
From my understanding, Shamans, by definition can not retain their power if they aspire to damage the land- Their power isn't enslaved such as Warlocks use, theirs is granted to them by the elements. In Shaman quests, they don't BEAT UP the elements, they beg their favor.
Isn't this the reason why Orc Shamans didn't exist in early Warcraft games? The Orcs had lost their roots in shamanism in favor of demonic power?
It wasn't that the spirits had forsaken them, to my knowledge, but rather the demonic bloodlust drove them into a murderous, warmongering frenzy.
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4785777 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 1:21:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Would it really have ruined the game to have all male dwarves? To only let females Shadowmeld? To make warlocks shunned from some of the major cities? There's a lot of mechanics that were put into place to create balance, and in the process came sterility.
Er...
All of these are decisions made in favor of both mechanics and, believe it or not, a more balanced and understandable world. You may not agree with them, but remember the following:
1) Baby Dwarves come from somewhere, and it's the same process that makes baby Humans. That requires females. As Dwarves are a hardy race, there's no reason why female Dwarves shouldn't be adventurers; just because you haven't seen them in the past does not mean they didn't exist or they weren't adventuring, even. The previous games take place on the battlefield only; in World of Warcraft, there are many skirmishes with factions close to home.
2) Warlocks are a hidden society in the Alliance cities. In Stormwind, they're located in the basement of a bar. In Ironforge, they're in the Forlorn Cavern, a place of shady dealings. In Orgimmar, they're kept under Thrall's close eye, and in the Undercity, well, the Forsaken are so inextricably tied with the demons, whether they like it or not, that I hardly believe Sylvanas would disallow using their own power against them. Ask a guard in Orgrimmar about the Warlock trainer sometime; he won't be happy with you. The general outlook is one of distaste, but they're not outright banned; they do provide power to the armies of these people. And when one is trying to rebuild from a time of war, when fights are breaking out on all sides... why would you make an enemy in your own ranks, that knows your people and your defenses well enough to undermine them? That's pure folly.
Now, Cairne refuses to have a Warlock trainer in his midst. He reluctantly allows the Forsaken to stay in the Cavern under Spirit Rise, but no tamer of demons has been allowed to set up shop in Thunder Bluff. I certainly don't see those who follow demonic practices being given a place to call home in Darnassus, either. They're tolerated when passing through, barely.
You don't believe that Warlocks should be allowed in cities. The city leaders respectfully disagree with you. It's supported by lore, whether or not you agree with it.
3) The Shadowmeld mechanic is the only thing that goes directly against another mechanic of past Warcrafts; it's a balance issue in World of Warcraft where it was not in Warcraft 3. I can give you any number of reasons, however. Since the Archimonde event, when Night Elves became mortal, perhaps the men felt that they needed more protection in this ever-more threatening world, and trained with the women of the Night Elf society to hide in shadows as they do. Time has passed since Warcraft 3, enough for such a thing to occur.
I don't see the sterility you claim is there. I see a rich world with plenty of lore and history, complex, lore-founded motivations behind mechanics you claim are in error, and a wonderful world to explore.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4786252 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 1:33:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Unfortunately Caydiem ...... if he had posed the question as you stated above .... you most likely would not have answered .... huh?
You bothered to reply and poke at his attempt at the question ... but you didn't even both to answer. Yeah ... he could have asked differently/less aggressive but you also could have actually answered.
I am a firm believer in not giving spoilers, and rather letting players discover for themselves the whys and wherefores. He challenged us by saying we didn't understand the lore. I responded to it saying we understood just fine, and there might well be a reason why these aren't behaving in the way he thinks they should.
That's the basics of both posts. The original poster understood that meaning. I appreciate you coming here to defend him, but that's really not necessary. :P
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4786522 |
Poster: Caydiem at 9/7/2005 1:39:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Why are devs lore-ignorant? *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Actually, the game itself shows you that the alliance between the forsaken and the rest of the horde it a VERY tenuous one. Just look at the reputations when you first create your horde character.
I don't think you read that statement of mine fully. ;)
- Caydiem -
/moo
|
| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4783119&p=#post4786637 |
