Poster: Doko at 4/22/2005 9:23:19 AM PDT
Subject: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Responses |
| |
Summary of Blizzard CM responses to honor system and other 1.4 patch issues expressed on the forums:
Caydiem: Anyone who complains is a "vocal minority". "We've heard this before" (this level of dissatisfaction) and we take the community reaction to the developers, who make the final determination what to do with it, if anything, and then return here to tell you what their response is. (because you know, this is so much more efficient a process than the devs just coming here to communicate directly with their players, or reading through the more prolific and constructive threads themselves). The developers will do something about it if they damn well feel like it, and if they do, it won't be because of all your whining.
Tyren: Dishonor is impossible to implement because it's likely that people will make thousands of level 1 alts, park them in TM, and swarm level 60 mages and paladins attacking a town in a level 30 zone they have no business being in anyway, just to drain away their precious honor gained from hours of farming people 10 levels lower.
Eyonix: (post 1) This is just a "new toy" and you can't tell anything about whether it's flawed from how people play with it during the first few days. (funny, when I opened up my new toy to find that it didn't work or it wasn't what I wanted, I hardly played with it at all)
(post 2) Now, AFTER the system has already rolled out with tons of flaws and a HUGE level of dissatisfaction, it MIGHT actually be time to address issues that customers have been bringing up for weeks of test realm play to the lead developer. I'll come here and make a big show of how I'm going to be the champion of communicating issues to the devs, even though it's something I should have done weeks ago to stop this piece of crap from going live when it wasn't ready and we all knew it was going to wreck the game for most players.
Fangtooth: Give it time, during which you should just silently endure all the ridiculous mess and virtual unplayability the patch has caused. (unplayable, that is, unless you enjoy running all over level 30 zones in 40 man raid groups mindlessly zerging any red you see).
Here are my responses.
Caydiem: You specifically asked for people to come to the forums and post feedback. You claim that this is the appropriate channel for reaching the developers through you and then condescend to anyone who dares to complain that they are a "vocal minority" with entitlement issues expecting that their complaints will be instantly acted upon by the developers out of fear of losing customers. In fact, most issues that have received no attention from the devs are things that a very vocal MAJORITY of players have been complaining about in class forums since the release of the game, particularly warlocks and warriors. Trying to obscure the devs' lack of attention to these issues by claiming you have access to some kind of data which shows forum posters to be a "minority" is nothing more than an evasion tactic and an excuse for poor response times. Either post this data you have which breaks down the complainers vs. those who favor the status quo or quit making such claims. I'm not going to throw personal insults at you because it's childish and stupid, but I will say that the way you respond to posts at times comes across as arrogant and standoffish, and given the responsibilities of your position as a "community" manager, I feel you might want to try harder at leading by example for the kind of respectful community you want to foster.
Tyren: What about the droves of level 40-55 players who are being effectively griefed and farmed for honor, unable to defend themselves from zergs of 10+ level 60's? Do you not see where this is just as bad for players as your supposed scenario that attempts to invalidate all the GOOD AND WELL EXAMINED reasons that the honor system is meaningless and nothing more than a tool for exploitation without a corresponding dishonor penalty? If your reasons for not implementing dishonor were adequate to justify not implementing it, why is what's happening now not justification for not implementing honor? Coming down on the side of the minority of level 60 players who want to advance themselves at the expense of everyone else because they are bored rather the majority of sub-60 players who probably just want to play the game and have fun without being faced with completely overwhelming and unfair odds shows where your priorities are. And if I may say so, they are ass-backwards.
Eyonix: You're doing a great job of putting on a facade like you and the rest of Blizzard actually cares about the immense level of dissatisfaction that has people quitting left and right, and your efforts to stem the tide are admirable. Still, everyone knows as well as you do that these issues were constantly communicated by the test realm users (when that realm was actually available, which was not very frequent) as well as a vast number of players who had lots of reservations about this honor system ruleset actively encouraging precisely the ridiculous behavior that is being exhibited now.
And your "new toy" analogy is almost as annoying and condescending as Caydiem calling everyone a "vocal minority". Every customer's opinion means something, and you can't just toss thousands of legitimate complaints aside because the people complaining haven't "given it enough time" for the new to wear off. That's ridiculous. NO ONE around my level is going to be giving it time by actually playing the game. We are not going to be farmed and harassed under totally unfair conditions and kept from doing anything other than joining mindless zerg raids for mutual protection just so you guys can sit back and "see what happens" before you decide to fix your obviously flawed and incomplete system that you've forced on your players, effectively turning them all into paying test subjects. And that's exactly what this attitude demonstrates--you see your players as guinea pigs who are yours to manipulate and monitor, not as paying customers to whom you are obligated to provide quailty service and respond to their issues in a timely and professional manner. This system should have never rolled out in its current state and everyone knows it. It should have been left on test realms until it could be tweaked to balance out the inequities, or released as a fourth server ruleset for those who VOLUNTARILY wanted to participate in its refinement. Instead you opened the flood gates on the majority of your players and chose to expose them to massive lag and gankfests that you knew would ensue. And for what? To appease a minority of bored level 60's and keep them from defecting to other games? To "spice up" PvP at the expense of people who can't competitively participate because the rules are too exploitable? Then instead of just admitting you made a mistake, all you can do is tell people to wait and see how it turns out? This is unacceptable, and it's the main reason I'm out.
Fangtooth: Blizzard makes reparations to customers who are unable to access the game due to patches bringing down the game, so at least on some level Blizzard acknowledges responsibility for creating cicumstances which cut into playtime and make the game we are paying for unusable. Well guess what... during the past three days this game has been totally unusable for anyone in the 40-55 level range. We are being farmed non-stop in ways that don't remotely resemble fair play or honor. And your response is "give it time"? Did you tell people to "give it time" when the servers were down? Hell no, you would have been run out of town on a rail. The simple fact of the matter is this system was not ready for primetime, and it has a tremendous number of fundamental mechanical flaws as well as at least 5 different ways it can be exploited, not to mention the lag which is at least partially Blizzard's issue to deal with, not the players.
To all of you: Stop blaming your players for 1) overreacting to having the play incentives for the entire game overhauled with no notice, and 2) for playing in a way that pursues the new incentives. Ultimately, it was Blizzard who offered the incentive for acting this way in-game, and the players are not the ones to blame for trying to achieve the goals of this new system. Your system actively encourages and rewards camping spirit healers, killing people 12 levels below you who have no chance to win and in some cases not even a chance to escape, ganking people who are engaged on mobs, exploiting guard mechanics in neutral towns, exploiting class skills like Vanish and stun locking just for cheap kills on people who can't fight back, engaging in 10-on-1 gang banging, joining a large raid group, putting someone on /follow and going AFK for two hours while racking up kills the whole time, and the list goes on and on. This isn't a flaw in the players, it's a flaw in a system that provides material benefit for these actions. If you put a magical well in the center of both capitals that randomly handed out 100g to the 100th person who clicked on it every day, you could expect that well to be camped 24/7/365 and you could further expect that this camping and the lag it causes would not die down after the first weeks. Well, you've implemented a system which provides roughly an equivalent benefit to that scenario for roughly the same amount of skill and effort required. So stop blaming the players who are rushing to gain as much benefit from your insanely idiotic system while they can, because it's almost certain at this point to be removed or significantly changed.
Finally, why won't you just admit that you released this before it was ready just to attempt to pre-empt bored level 60's heading over to Guild Wars next week? I think it's so funny that you tried for this coup and got the exact opposite reaction from a segment of your players you turned into victims, i.e. we will be the ones leaving for Guild Wars, and there's a hell of a lot more of us than there are of those you were trying to obsequiously appease. I don't understand how when you have the immense advantage of owning the rights to such a superior piece of software, you go out of your way to sabotage every facet of its implementation. You're making money hand over fist IN SPITE OF YOURSELVES, and you can only expect this to last for so long before someone comes along and does you one better. And they way they are going to do that is by listening and responding to their customers, even though their product might be vastly inferior. Maybe not Guild Wars (here's hoping though), maybe not this month or even this year, but it's going to happen. And you'll have no one to blame but yourselves.
---Edit---
By request, here are the orginal (or what's left of them after CM edits) quotes that I've paraphrased, abeit in a biased manner I admit. I will leave it to you to judge how far off-base I am with the "PR translated" version I offered.
Caydiem:
Q u o t e:
The way to leave your feedback on the game is to post on the forums. There is no direct communication route to the developers (aside from the fact that they read the forums also); we ask that you phrase your concerns in a constructive manner so we can more easily pass them along.
(edited out most of the part I had the problem with)
Q u o t e:
There seems to be some misconception on how feedback is taken.
We have gathered your feedback on the Honor System and on other things (yes, like the Lightforge Helm). We have taken it to the developers and discussed it with them so they understand where the community stands on an issue. That feedback is then considered and a change might be made. We give your feedback to the developers and explain your side of things, but that does not mean that something will automatically change.
In all honesty, the current activity on these forums about the Honor System is something we've seen before. The developers are not going to take kneejerk action and yank the Honor System out of the game after only three days. The first tally hasn't even taken place, and everyone is currently trying it out because it's new.
We're monitoring the feedback and passing it along, and the developers are listening, but do not expect a guaranteed change because you're displeased with a new feature. We're explaining your side of things to the development staff to the best of our ability and they're taking it in; they will take action if they feel it necessary after reviewing all the data and concerns.
Tyren:
Q u o t e:
So lets say I make a level 1 character and run him around Tarren Mill until someone kills me because they are too busy to look at the level, or because someone hit me with an AE. How would a Dishonor system tell if that person was trying to kill me intentionall, or if I was trying to get this person Dishonor intentionally?
Common suggestion: Low level player doesn't take damage unless he initiates combat. - That system is in the game, in the form of the PvE realms. Also, if you are on a PvP realm, do you want to see a level 1 opponent running around your group without fear because he knows he is safe from you?
Eyonix:
Can't quote Eyonix's first post because he edited out the "new toy" analogy he got so much heat for. Here's the link to the edited post:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2704649&s=blizzard&tmp=1#blizzard
Q u o t e:
We realize that the Honor system has been a very hot topic as of late, and that many of you are concerned with the effect it will have on your overall game play experience. As a result, the Community Team has requested a meeting with our lead designer Kalgan, who is responsible for heading up the Honor system. Below are a few of the questions we plan to ask. Answers to these questions should be provided before the week's end.
It should also be noted that we appreciate all the constructive feedback we've received thus far concerning the Honor system. Please continue to provide us with your feedback!
Fangtooth:
Q u o t e:
(quote limit for single post exceeded)
While I appreciate your comments, I would ask that you give it at least a week or two before you can fully judge the new system that was implemented two days ago.
[ post edited by Doko ]
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2741347 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 11:54:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo |
| |
I will ask you, Doko, not to twist my words and tell the community that I said something which I clearly did not. I did not say that anyone who complains is the vocal minority. I understand you're trying to make a point, but you can do so without making it seem that I said something I did not.
You folks do have valid complaints. If you ever got the impression that we're ignoring them, I'd like to dispel that right now: we are reading what you write and taking it to the developers. The Q&A we're working on should help explain some aspects of the Honor System that were confusing to you.
We are not going to take rash action when it comes to the Honor System. This is a major feature that has been worked on for quite some time... it is not something we threw together in five minutes and pushed out there to you. It's been meticulously designed, tuned, and tested over months. It does change the game somewhat -- I won't deny that -- but it is not the disaster some believe it to be.
I say "we've seen this before" because we have, with every major feature addition. I'm not throwing your opinions out the window with this remark. I wasn't here for the Rest System (as a CM; I was as a tester), but when the Durability System and Paladin changes went live, I was in discussions with the development team about your initial reaction to the changes. It's no different this time -- we're here for you, but at the same time we're not going to remove the system completely after less than a week of it being live.
We're watching. We're reading. We're analyzing the data and the opinions. We're not ignoring you. If things are drastically out of whack, yes, something will change in time. But by the same token, we have to ask you to trust in us a bit on this system. It has been designed a certain way for a reason, and while you folks have (very valid) opinions on what it has done to your personal play experience, we also need to consider what it does for the game as a whole.
Bear with us a little longer, folks.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2745583 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:07:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo |
| |
Q u o t e:
you say 'folks' alot dontcha? :P
I do. I don't like saying "guys", and "folks" is informal and better than some other alternatives. ;)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2745856 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:37:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo |
| |
Q u o t e:
The problem I have with this Cay, is that you absolutely DID say "vocal minority". I read it. I read it again.. and again. I couldn't belive my eyes.
You most certainly did say something to the effect of ... "We are not going to change the game in a kneejerk fashion because of the vocal minority complaining on these forums."
Yet of course... I was unable to reply because low and behold... Login Servers Down.
Now I go back to that post, and you have edited out what you said about the "vocal minority".
It's just sad that 100's or even 1000's of people read that... and you now claim that you didn't say it. Perhaps you should run for some type of public officials office. You'd fit right in.
Vyrus, I edited nothing about "vocal minority" in any of my posts. I never, NEVER said that anyone who complains is in the vocal minority.
I make edits to add or correct typos; I have not removed anything from my posts in the past few days. I'm not saying I never coined the term "vocal minority" -- I did. What I'm clearing up is that I did NOT say that anyone who complains is in that vocal minority, before or after edits.
And just so it's clear, this was edited for clarification -- nothing was removed, only added.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2746582 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:51:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo |
| |
Q u o t e:
Cay... you did say it. I read it. I'm not here to lambaste you. I'm not here because I don't like you. I don't even know you.
I'm here because I'm unhappy with the current system, and wish to voice my opinion.
Are you calling me a liar? Are you calling all of the other people here that saw your post a liar?
We all saw what you said. You called us the "Vocal Minority." Plain and simple.
Do a search of these forums, and you cannot even find your post about the issue in question.
Why would this be? Becasue you edited it!
Please do not insult me or any of the other people that read what you said, by telling us you did not say it, nor did you edit it.
If you did not say it, where did we all get this notion? If you did not edit it, why can we not find it now?
Doesn't look edited to me. I can't say as to why you couldn't find it, though...
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=2681742&P=1
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2747002 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:51:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Cay... you did say it. I read it. I'm not here to lambaste you. I'm not here because I don't like you. I don't even know you.
I'm here because I'm unhappy with the current system, and wish to voice my opinion.
Are you calling me a liar? Are you calling all of the other people here that saw your post a liar?
We all saw what you said. You called us the "Vocal Minority." Plain and simple.
Do a search of these forums, and you cannot even find your post about the issue in question.
Why would this be? Becasue you edited it!
Please do not insult me or any of the other people that read what you said, by telling us you did not say it, nor did you edit it.
If you did not say it, where did we all get this notion? If you did not edit it, why can we not find it now?
Doesn't look edited to me. I can't say as to why you couldn't find it, though...
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=2681742&P=1
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2747002 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:56:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo |
| |
Read what I've said in this thread.
Please, read it.
Did I once deny that I used the term "vocal minority"? No. I confirmed it. However, it is being taken completely out of context by some, twisting it to say that I was saying "anyone who complains is the vocal minority", which is not true.
What I was saying in that thread, just to clear up any misconceptions, was that the developer team will not necessarily make changes due to the will of a vocal minority. That's it. I wasn't pointing fingers, and I wasn't saying that your voice doesn't matter.
Are we clear?[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2747147 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:59:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo |
| |
Q u o t e:
You guys fail at reading comprehension.
She did not say she didn't say the words "vocal minority". She said that she did not claim that people who complain are the vocal minority.
If you reread her -original- post, she says that things will not be changed just because a vocal minority wants it.
She did -not- say people who want the change are the vocal minority.
The whole point of her post was that they need to wait to determine just that.
In a way, the post itself is an admission that she doesn't know if it is a vocal minority or the majority. She's merely saying a bunch of threads about it in a few days doesn't imply that "most" players want it.
Thank you, Andeas.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2747222 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 11:54:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo *edited post* |
| |
I will ask you, Doko, not to twist my words and tell the community that I said something which I clearly did not. I did not say that anyone who complains is the vocal minority. I understand you're trying to make a point, but you can do so without making it seem that I said something I did not.
You folks do have valid complaints. If you ever got the impression that we're ignoring them, I'd like to dispel that right now: we are reading what you write and taking it to the developers. The Q&A we're working on should help explain some aspects of the Honor System that were confusing to you.
We are not going to take rash action when it comes to the Honor System. This is a major feature that has been worked on for quite some time... it is not something we threw together in five minutes and pushed out there to you. It's been meticulously designed, tuned, and tested over months. It does change the game somewhat -- I won't deny that -- but it is not the disaster some believe it to be.
I say "we've seen this before" because we have, with every major feature addition. I'm not throwing your opinions out the window with this remark. I wasn't here for the Rest System (as a CM; I was as a tester), but when the Durability System and Paladin changes went live, I was in discussions with the development team about your initial reaction to the changes. It's no different this time -- we're here for you, but at the same time we're not going to remove the system completely after less than a week of it being live.
We're watching. We're reading. We're analyzing the data and the opinions. We're not ignoring you. If things are drastically out of whack, yes, something will change in time. But by the same token, we have to ask you to trust in us a bit on this system. It has been designed a certain way for a reason, and while you folks have (very valid) opinions on what it has done to your personal play experience, we also need to consider what it does for the game as a whole.
Bear with us a little longer, folks.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2745583 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:07:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
you say 'folks' alot dontcha? :P
I do. I don't like saying "guys", and "folks" is informal and better than some other alternatives. ;)
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2745856 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:37:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
The problem I have with this Cay, is that you absolutely DID say "vocal minority". I read it. I read it again.. and again. I couldn't belive my eyes.
You most certainly did say something to the effect of ... "We are not going to change the game in a kneejerk fashion because of the vocal minority complaining on these forums."
Yet of course... I was unable to reply because low and behold... Login Servers Down.
Now I go back to that post, and you have edited out what you said about the "vocal minority".
It's just sad that 100's or even 1000's of people read that... and you now claim that you didn't say it. Perhaps you should run for some type of public officials office. You'd fit right in.
Vyrus, I edited nothing about "vocal minority" in any of my posts. I never, NEVER said that anyone who complains is in the vocal minority.
I make edits to add or correct typos; I have not removed anything from my posts in the past few days. I'm not saying I never coined the term "vocal minority" -- I did. What I'm clearing up is that I did NOT say that anyone who complains is in that vocal minority, before or after edits.
And just so it's clear, this was edited for clarification -- nothing was removed, only added.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2746582 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:51:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
Cay... you did say it. I read it. I'm not here to lambaste you. I'm not here because I don't like you. I don't even know you.
I'm here because I'm unhappy with the current system, and wish to voice my opinion.
Are you calling me a liar? Are you calling all of the other people here that saw your post a liar?
We all saw what you said. You called us the "Vocal Minority." Plain and simple.
Do a search of these forums, and you cannot even find your post about the issue in question.
Why would this be? Becasue you edited it!
Please do not insult me or any of the other people that read what you said, by telling us you did not say it, nor did you edit it.
If you did not say it, where did we all get this notion? If you did not edit it, why can we not find it now?
Doesn't look edited to me. I can't say as to why you couldn't find it, though...
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=2681742&P=1
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2747002 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:56:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo *edited post* |
| |
Read what I've said in this thread.
Please, read it.
Did I once deny that I used the term "vocal minority"? No. I confirmed it. However, it is being taken completely out of context by some, twisting it to say that I was saying "anyone who complains is the vocal minority", which is not true.
What I was saying in that thread, just to clear up any misconceptions, was that the developer team will not necessarily make changes due to the will of a vocal minority. That's it. I wasn't pointing fingers, and I wasn't saying that your voice doesn't matter.
Are we clear?[ post edited by Caydiem ]
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2747147 | Poster: Caydiem at 4/22/2005 12:59:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Summary & Critique: CM Honor System Respo *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
You guys fail at reading comprehension.
She did not say she didn't say the words "vocal minority". She said that she did not claim that people who complain are the vocal minority.
If you reread her -original- post, she says that things will not be changed just because a vocal minority wants it.
She did -not- say people who want the change are the vocal minority.
The whole point of her post was that they need to wait to determine just that.
In a way, the post itself is an admission that she doesn't know if it is a vocal minority or the majority. She's merely saying a bunch of threads about it in a few days doesn't imply that "most" players want it.
Thank you, Andeas.
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2741347&p=#post2747222 |
View all recent official Blue Posts
|
