Poster: Valandur at 12/28/2005 9:11:05 PM PST
Subject: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" want |
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They want us to be a melee hybrid class that understands how powerful healing in pve and pvp is and to stick to it.
They want a paladin with better heals (holy), better ways to survive to deliver those heals (prot), and bigger hits in between heals (ret).
In short, they want paladins to learn2heal. Here is what galls paladins: Feral, Balance, Enhancement, Elemental, and Shadow. Five trees that, when combined with the right gear, can elevate a healing/hybrid class to a full fledged damage dealer endgame, and elevate a class from back of the lines suppor in PvP to front lines threat.
We practically begged you to move our bubbles deep into the holy tree, out of baseline, to elevate this class out of this purely defensive state. We wanted to sacrifice baseline overpowered survivability (DS is the only ability in the game that negats PvP assist train focus fire, and is therefore tremendously overpowered) for meaningful role choices. You either failed to deliver this feedback to the developers, or the developers didn't buy it.
Until the developers understand that we want the same level of specialization that feral, balance, elemental, enhancement, or shadow offer, we will be a class that is 100% support, 100% healer, 100% defense. And quite frankly, that was not what was advertised. We were advertised quite clearly as a hybrid tank/melee class that could support heal when needed. What the devs have created in 1.9 is a class that cannot responsibly avoid healing in ANY content, from 5-40 man PvE to world or BG PvP.
We wanted CHOICES, like ALL OTHER hybrids and healers have. Touting our incredibly combat healing capability is missing the point entirely, and is ALL THE TROLLS YOU SO VALIANTLY DEFEND HAVE EVER DONE.
Until you understand the desire for CHOICE in the paladin community, your task of relaying feedback to the devs will remain unfulfilled. I say again: feral, balance, enhancement, elemental, and shadow are potentially role changing, despite all of the social pressures to heal. Ret and Prot are not. And that is why 1.9 is perceived as such a failure by any paladin who was not interested in devoting the majority of his efforts to healing, in ALL PvE and ALL PvP content.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post758715 | | | Poster: Caydiem at 12/28/2005 10:24:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" want |
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Valandur...
When on earth did I ever state that the devil's advocates were right, or that I agreed with the meat of what they were saying?
I am defending what they are doing, which is challenging you to think harder about what you're suggesting and refine your suggestions to make them all the stronger! Their feedback isn't as important to me as the Paladins who are 60 and have been 60 for some time -- but that does not mean that what they do here is not valuable.
I know what you were seeking, and so do the developers. Don't confuse my support of these posters with my taking their feedback as truth and not yours. I prefer your feedback to theirs, as you have more experience. You folks are talking to me, and Blizzard as a whole. Ellia, Phanna, and the other devil's advocates are primarily talking to you. There's a difference. You're giving feedback. They, whether you believe it or not, are improving the quality of said feedback more than adding to it with their own opinions.
The developers know exactly how you feel, and it is the desire you quote as your own that has been expressed to them time and again. Please, friend, don't make assumptions based on my defense of the devil's advocates. I was approving what they were doing for your feedback, not necessarily their posts in and of themselves, and if you read back, that's what I've always said about them. :)[ post edited by Caydiem ]
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759047 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/28/2005 10:29:22 PM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" |
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Q u o t e:
Pssht, only because you ignore me when I talk to you!
There appears to be a glitch on my screen. I could've sworn I saw something... eh, no matter!
:P
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759066 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/28/2005 10:31:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" |
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Kuren, a word of advice...
I read more threads than many think I do. Pasting your comments into many threads does little besides raise my ire. I'll read it if it's in the original thread. You don't need to bring it everywhere I'm active. :)
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759072 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/28/2005 10:40:17 PM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" want |
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Valandur, they do quite a bit more than say "learn2heal". If that's all they did, I certainly wouldn't be saying that they improve the community. Give me a little more credit than that, hm?
I'm not saying you should agree with these people. They poke holes in arguments about moving away from healing, and as Paladins respond to their posts and defend their stance on the subject, it strengthens the original post and makes that argument -- the argument for more choices -- all the stronger.
Many times we, as people with ideas and desire to see things changed, do our best to cover all the angles and present our stance without err. But we're only human, after all, and there may well be weak points in our presentation. That's what they're helping. Oh, they're frustrating. They're opposition. I'm not saying otherwise. But they make you think. They make you look at your argument again and defend it, perhaps with new points you forgot to bring up originally. They're helping you in your feedback, even if it seems they're just there to be annoying and shut you down. They're not succeeding in that, because you're passionate, and the end result is better than the original.
As for changes, I've spoken to the developers, and they're of the mind that their review of the class is complete for 1.9.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759101 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/28/2005 11:39:53 PM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" want |
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If I didn't care, I sure as hell wouldn't be posting three and a half hours after I came home from work. I'd walk away from the forum without thinking twice.
If I didn't care, I wouldn't be posting at all unless I had information to give you.
If I didn't care, I wouldn't still be planning on talking to the developers about Paladins despite the fact that they've said they're done with the review.
Say what you will of my posting style, the information I give, or what I say, but please, don't accuse me of not caring.
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759229 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/29/2005 12:24:25 AM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" want |
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Honestly, folks, if you find a post by said devil's advocates that violates policy, report it using the biohazard symbol. The forum moderators will look at it, will judge the post based on the Code of Conduct, and will take action appropriately. Pointing them out to me doesn't help much, since moderating isn't my primary duty.
I know that some of the things they've said haven't been constructive. I haven't denied that. They're not MVPs, now, are they? :P They just spur you to post in a more complete fashion. I've been managing communities for years in various positions, and was a participant before that. You may not believe they're helping, but I tell you from a more objective point of view that they've indirectly inspired some of the best, most constructive and complete posts in this forum. Trust me in this, even if you hate them. ;)
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759327 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/29/2005 12:31:16 AM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" |
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Your class name is Paladin and that is remaining. If you're expecting to be called Cleric, I'm sorry, but that's not happening. The entire idea of changing the name is based almost completely on preconceived notions from other games.
As for description inconsistencies, I'm looking into that, but it's not over til the shaved Wookiee sings.
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759345 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/29/2005 12:33:23 AM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" want |
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Q u o t e:
I have done it, and zero, jack, nada, happened. When a mod door is closed we have to ring on another one, being you.
Doors swing both ways, so you shouldn´t be angry too if people come at you trying to inspire you to do your best job here as CM here. ;)
I'm not a moderator, Mallow. I'm a community manager. And in managing this community, I'm explaining why these people are still present. You disagree, and that's fine. Still, it's my community to manage.
If you want to see them disciplined, use the biohazard symbol or eMail wowreportedpost@blizzard.com. Posting about such things is, in fact, just as against the code of conduct as the things you are reporting. Please don't, and instead use the outlets we've given you when it comes to reporting. I'm not angry, I'm just a little tired of people repeatedly attempting to call attention to things by using methods other than what the forum moderators use.
Seriously. The biohazard symbol works. If nothing happens, it's because it's not a violation of policy. You may not always see what happens. People get warned through eMail. We don't announce suspensions from the mountaintops. Leave the moderating to the moderators, hm?[ post edited by Caydiem ]
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759353 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/29/2005 12:38:19 AM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" want |
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Q u o t e:
Edited my post, but I´ll repeat this since I believe is the core of my posting: we are getting out of doors to ring. Hence the ringing gets more and more louder on the few ones we have.
Give us options, Cay. I have reported until my mail almost exploded, and nothing happened. Nothing. And even you admit their attitude is not the most... adequate. What can we do?
Something has to be done.
Here are your options:
Click the biohazard symbol.
eMail wowreportedpost@blizzard.com.
Those are your options. Posting with links to threads you want moderated is not, in fact, an acceptable option.
Those are the acceptable methods of reporting a post. If you use them, great. Keep using them. Those are the only methods we allow and the only ones I'm going to recognize whatsoever. It's not up for discussion.
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759371 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/29/2005 12:46:23 AM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" want |
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Q u o t e:
I´m not discussing that. Just signaling that when the cooling rods fails to heat the nuclear reactor, well the reactor explodes. *shrug* And is hard to accept that some effort could have been done to, indeed, cool it; but they weren´t done by some technicism glitch. I believe that something could and can be done before the KABOOOM!. I see it daily at work (PR atm). =)
The forum moderators review everything reported in the same day, and if need be, they act.
I don't think there's going to be an explosion of any kind at this juncture due to these individuals. :P
Also, in case you missed it, I can't precisely walk around the moderators' office because I'm not at work. I'm posting from home. If you need to contact the moderators, you know how to do so. This is hardly a red flag situation.[ post edited by Caydiem ]
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759399 | Poster: Caydiem at 12/29/2005 12:55:21 AM PST
Subject: Re: Cay, here's what the "devil's advocates" want |
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Apologies for being minorly crabby, Mallow. In addition to many things, I literally can't moderate efficiently from home. (Enough to get the job done if there's a spam attack or something, mind, so don't get any ideas, you mischevious lurkers.) Our moderators -- some of which are still working as I type this -- are there to do nothing but patrol the forums and react to the biohazard reports that come in. They're a tremendous asset for the rest of the Community Team, as we can focus less on chasing trolls and more on feedback and conversation. ;)
My heart is locked away in Glastonbury Tor.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=758715&p=#post759425 |
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