Poster: Vellan at 5/25/2006 11:48:21 AM PDT
Subject: Introspection: Community, Class, CM |
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Hi,
The forums have been boiling with a lot of heat lately regarding mages.
I wish we should take the "can we all get along ?" avenue.
The hyperboles, misconceptions, and prejudices have been going rampage on every sides.
Mages = whiners ?
Many people, including a CM, have expressed the feeling that mages players are a "voicier" than average and get fast on the "bandwagon" of complaining.
I've looked on the En-Europe forums, as well as the FR-Europe ones. While I've got to admit that the US ones seem jump faster, mages of every country share the exact same concerns.
Yes, they express it a little more harshly, but could it be related with the way they've been dealt with ?
And who would seriously think that a "class" could simply have players that whine more than another?
We're not role-playing in there, neither complaining is a mage "Talent". Many of us have multiple other lvl 60 toons, and are just expressing our feeling toward our mage one.
Could it be a *possibility* that many of the mage concerns are actually VALID ?
The problem is, it looks so much like most of them are simply discarded, without any justification by Blue, that it *indeed* leads to a lot of frustration, thus the venting.
Mages = fine ?
The "mage = whiners" prejudice above brings the harsh "mages are fine, learn2play" counter-argument.
Simply enough, many players who have rolled mage have the feeling that the "Best ranged damage dealing class" don't meet their expectations.
These people got told by fellow players, and Tseric, "if the mage is not for you, reroll". I think it's kind of sad that we're taking this road.
Of course there's hyperboling, sarcasm, and cynism. Partly due to the fact that the mage class didn't get much improvement/itemization since day one.
That, with the fact that the mage endured several "nerfs" from beta, have left the mage community with a sour taste in their mouth.
Then comes the 1.11 review. Which is admittedly an improvement... but considered very minor when taking everything else into account.
One issue is, nobody told us that the designers planned to remove the "glass cannon" aspect of the mage. Well, untill Tseric did a few weeks ago.
Yes mage have the potential of dealing high damage... but then again, which class doesn't beside Paladins ?
Community Management
Many concerns remain unanswered, and information kept hidden for some reason. I've grown to resign to the fact that the dev simply don't feel like they "have to" justify their design changes because it's "their" game.
However, some other may adher to the "conspiracy" hyperbole. I.e. "the CM's main is a warlock, and no dev seems to be playing a mage according to issues we got here". While I doubt this is the truth, maybe something could be done to give the mage a feeling that they got a "representative".
Most CMs have stated many times that they're in no way class representatives. They're actually *dev* representatives, and forum moderators. However, simple posts as "makes sense, I'll forward this to the dev" is often more enough to give a community the feeling that it's heard.
This could lead to much less frustration. I mean, how many VERY constructive threads have been going w/o a blue tag? While I understand that CMs can't post all the time, this is the kind of frustrating situation that helps fueling the uproar.
And please.. rebuting a player's valid and constructive concern with Pyroblast's utility @6seconds casting time by saying "try PoM" can be easily seen as an insult to one's intelligence. Also saying that he was just asking for a beefed fireball is a false assumption. Back in the old "Concern & Desires" thread, there was a mention of Pyro not giving enough for it's casting time & cooldown. I think what this guy meant was to let the cooldown @1min but allow the casting time to be lowered with a talent similar to Bane. It was, in my opinion, opening a valid discussion on making a spell less situational, and less dependent on a 3minutes CD 21 Arcane talent. However, it sadly turned into a flame fest.
Concerns
Besides agro management, downtime, and viability of elementalist builds, 1.11 doesn't solve most concerns, especially for PvP.
Mages have been questionning the new Arcane tree. +6% crit on a single spell that doesn't crit for much ? What is going on with Arcane Resilience ? Mages will complain about this new "red nose" talent for a while. Why? Because they're completely left in the dark about a NEW talent that makes everyone go "are you serious?".
Mages have been asking why they have to keep their 3k hp, when every other classes in the game can match their damage. They got told it's because they can kite melee... That's it ? I'm sure there's more than that, why not tell us ? Maybe mages would complain less if at least they were explained why they had to experience these frustrations. We might not agree with the devs, but at least it'd be nice to know where they're going to with the class we've put days in.
Mages have been wondering why they don't have much of a chance against other caster classes. If it is intended that way for balance sake because we can kite warriors, rogues and paladins, why not just say it ? OK mages would still complain, but at least they would stop holding their breath for a "fix" to their concern.
Let's get along, shall we ?
Tseric, I know you have other concerns than mages, but some more involvement could prove useful to change the atmosphere here, especially that the 1.11 review is going on its way. For example, there's been a 3-threads long discussion going about the new "Mage's Design" the devs are apparently trying to implement. This discussion got quoted even on FR and EN Europe forums. It's based on facts, but also on a lot of assertions and speculations, which could be proven true or wrong by a detailed response. It would be highly appreciated if you could obtain the dev's PoV and sticky it. Is there any chance it could happen ?
Mage players, I don't think we're whinier than anyone else. I do honestly feel that the mage has more to complain about than many other classes. However, let's keep it civil. I know it's hard when a lot of constructive comments are ignored, but we all know that trolling won't help.
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=996182&p=#post996182 | | | Poster: Tseric at 5/25/2006 11:58:57 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Introspection: Community, Class, CM |
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Q u o t e:
Good post. I skimmed it. I'll be back to read it thoroughly later.
I will say that, as someone who is tired of the whining, "It's fine, learn2play" is incredibly dismissive. I prefer to say "I am having fun; you don't speak for everyone." But I can understand the frustration of happy mages who constantly get buried in complaints and attacks on our CM.
One problem is that, if I say "other mages don't necessarily share your outlook", many take the reaction that "oh, he's just telling us to learn to play."
What did one snowman say to the other?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=996182&p=#post996252 | Poster: Tseric at 5/25/2006 12:37:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Introspection: Community, Class, CM |
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Q u o t e:
Yes, they express it a little more harshly, but could it be related with the way they've been dealt with ?
Maybe. Except it was like that when I got here. The first post I made talking about the general outlook of mages in the game was met with the same vitriol I am seeing in recent days. The community took a very hostile stance from day one.
Q u o t e:
Simply enough, many players who have rolled mage have the feeling that the "Best ranged damage dealing class" don't meet their expectations.
I suppose you are referencing the manual here, so I will have to reiterate the point that, if you are using a marketing tool (like the manual) to define game play and roles for yourself, there is always going to be a disconnect between the actual game and what you want the game to be. Conventional conceptions of what mages are in other games also does not deal directly with this game and how mages operate in it.
Q u o t e:
Partly due to the fact that the mage class didn't get much improvement/itemization since day one.
I'm gonna let you in on a secret. We don't like the fact that talent reviews have been scheduled the way they have been. It is not the best way to ease players through class changes. Expectation build way to quickly and the actual changes always cause an undue amount of emotion and conflict. Regardless of your opinion of other class reviews, from our perspective, they have all been an undue amount of stress and extra work. This is not to say that the changes were not needed or what have you, simply that the method and schedule could have been better. The psychology of the approach is undeniable and negatively affected the flow of the communities attitude.
Q u o t e:
One issue is, nobody told us that the designers planned to remove the "glass cannon" aspect of the mage. Well, untill Tseric did a few weeks ago.
Actually, I did bring up hybridization and overlapping roles before. Perhaps I can find a link to it. The other issue I have is that this "glass cannon" concept is not completely gone from the mage, nor is it clearly epitomized the way players are seeing it. Simply put, the linear trade-off is not there, but there is a general principle of damage dealing and squishieness.
Q u o t e:
Yes mage have the potential of dealing high damage... but then again, which class doesn't beside Paladins ?
The damage balance is simply not as evened out as some would suggest. Every class is not matching a mages damage. Some may in situations, but it is simply not across the board, as commonly portrayed. This is why I take serious issue. If I hear that "every class does the same or more damage", I know people are being hyperbolic.
Q u o t e:
Besides agro management, downtime, and viability of elementalist builds, 1.11 doesn't solve most concerns, especially for PvP.
And here's the meat. The talent review is not going to solve every class issue to grace the boards. Please refer to my previous statement regarding the expectations and results.
Blink is being worked on, as I have stated. There have been improvements that should see purchase in PvP. I realize many want to trivialize aspects as soon as they see them, but that doesn't necessarily qualify as good feedback.
Example: Spell reflection is kind of a big deal to have as a talented ability. Immediately, people are saying "but it's only good for our schools of magic. That's useless." Again, trivializing and ignoring the fact that other classes do use fire and frost. Maybe not in as great a degree as some want, but players usually want more when given a buff. It happens more than it doesn't.
As for Pyroblast, the spell was essentially buffed. Put in a place in the talent tree which required fewer points; another buff, yes really. So, am I surprised when players want it to be even better and more versatile or reliable? Not really. What I am surprised at is that when I defined a clear option for players, which they were already quite aware of, I am met with flames. Guess what? When it comes to talents, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you are going to freak out over simple talent choices, we have a serious problem.
Q u o t e:
Mages have been questionning the new Arcane tree. +6% crit on a single spell that doesn't crit for much ? What is going on with Arcane Resilience ? Mages will complain about this new "red nose" talent for a while. Why? Because they're completely left in the dark about a NEW talent that makes everyone go "are you serious?".
This is probably due to everyones fluctuating ideas on what "survivability" means. What's even funnier is that, yes, many mages did ask for more melee damage mitigation. A single talent point offers a slight bonus to this and, again, it isn't good enough. Well, you don't have to take it and even if you want Arcane Mind, a single point is not going to send the house of cards tumbling down. Sometimes, sacrifices have to be made in talents. It's a big trade-off.
I need a sammich or something before I can comment more. I got the hunger headaches.
What did one snowman say to the other?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=996182&p=#post996533 | Poster: Tseric at 5/25/2006 12:39:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Introspection: Community, Class, CM |
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Q u o t e:
Good job Tseric, You poseted in a well written thread.. however you failed to contribute. All you did is cry more about how the mages make you sad.
Exercise some patience. You have simply proven my point from yesterday.
What did one snowman say to the other?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=996182&p=#post996548 | Poster: Tseric at 5/25/2006 12:50:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Introspection: Community, Class, CM |
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Q u o t e:
You're either not understanding the game itself or purposely the problem.
Yes, it would be an exaggeration to say that all classes can match a mage's damage. But it's simply a fact that most of them can while ALL of them have better survivability. At one point you mentioned a justification for this as mages having the best crowd control. This simply isn't true. Hunters and rogues both have better crowd control and do as much, if not more damage than mages in almost any situation. They also wear better armor and have more hit points in general.
Well, gosh, that is something I can agree with you on!
You cited specific classes. I can agree that they are dealing a lot of damage in many situations. Is sapping really better than poly, though? melee CC as opposed to ranged? seriously debatable. Hunters on the other hand, I can see something to it, but do they really have the ability to remove a mob so completely as sheeping does? Yeah, they can kite a creature to keep it out of the fight, but that keeps the hunter out of the fight, as well.
What did one snowman say to the other?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=996182&p=#post996655 | Poster: Tseric at 5/25/2006 1:15:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Introspection: Community, Class, CM |
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Q u o t e:
I guess for me the issue has already been settled. I am done with WoW but every once in awhile I like to check in on the forums and see everyone complain about not being God.
I always wanted to see statistics. When a CM says there is no way someone can compete (relax I am generalizing) with a mages damage output I want to see stats and at least in every post I have seen Blizzard has never provided any form of damage statistics.
I suppose this would have just as much of a chance of blowing up in your face as say any other post. Being an Economist I understand that you can question statistics and manipulate them as much as any written post. But from a purely scietific POV it would be nice.
Anyway flame away just my 2 cents.
I agree with you and am interested in seeing this data as well. Many things are cited as problems and taken on faith by the community. It's hard to distinguish what is what and to what degree even when you are reading solid posts. A solid post can contain a number of errors in it, but everyone will agree because it was "well-written" or "sounds reasonable".
What did one snowman say to the other?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=996182&p=#post996831 | Poster: Tseric at 5/25/2006 1:17:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Introspection: Community, Class, CM |
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Q u o t e:
You got here after months of absolute neglect of the class by Blizzard and a Eyonix who, while taking a less confrontational approach then you, often answered in such a way that pointed to a serious lack of understanding of the mage class.
So, Eyonix demonstrated a lack of knowledge and now I do too. Hmmmm, coincidence? I can't really say, but when I never got the benefit of the doubt in the first place, I lean towards another possibility.
What did one snowman say to the other?
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=996182&p=#post996843 |
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