Poster: Igy at 12/28/2005 11:29:51 AM PST
Subject: So blizzard... |
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What is a mage exactly suposed to do in group pvp to stay alive...
Let me explain my average AB experiance ( i have been playing this game since about two weeks after release, and next week will be rank 11, so i experiance this alot).
Warrior charges, i get slowed to 50% (which might i add for some reason is AS MUCH AND LASTS LONGER then my best slow, which is a cooldown) and after i get slowed, from the charge, i frostnova (cause if i blink i will just get intercepted) and then they either trinket out or get cleansed by a paladin/priest. I am now slowed to the point that i can't slow them enough to get them off me, and i can't stay alive without blinking, I blink and get intercepted and die. That is situation one.
What am i suposed to do. What do you want from us mages?
I cannot kite a warrior in group pvp. Blizzard knows hamstring is a 50% slow, and i can't slow beyond that. Using aoe to frostnova them or coc them is already risky cause of breaking crowd control, but i NEED to polymorph a warrior. If a mage doesn't start far away from a warrior, they can't win. A warrior slows to 50% for over 10 seconds, my only slow equal to that lasts 8 and is on a 10 second cooldown, this isn't even counting intimidating shout and piercing howl which are GREAT for kiting. A mage CANNOT kite a warrior without polymorph first, yet blizzard knows polymorphing a warrior means he is going to get cleansed out of it by a paladin or priest. Polymorph is to be used on classes that heal and cleanse (since that way they can't heal and cleanse themselves out of it), not classes that are just going to get cleansed out.
Mages have no way of surviving a warrior attack in group pvp, what do you wan't from us blizzard?
Cookie/Jeath: I could see you dancing in a big banana
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6433695&p=#post6433695 | | | Poster: Tseric at 12/28/2005 3:51:25 PM PST
Subject: Re: So blizzard... |
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So, if I am to understand you correctly, the average situation you encounter in AB results in you losing to a warrior with support. I assume by average you mean that this occurs regularly or as the standard.
How is it you lose so much, yet are rank 11?
If you find you are getting charged a lot, is it really only a "loser" who would use counter-spell to prevent a charge?
What is it exactly that you want? I am not seeing a clear issue/resolution here. I am only seeing how Blizzard apparently makes your life miserable. I don't really know how to address that concern, as there don't appear to be any reasonable steps to doing so.
Slo-mo Headbang FTW
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6433695&p=#post6437538 | Poster: Tseric at 12/28/2005 4:21:20 PM PST
Subject: Re: So blizzard... |
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Q u o t e:
Our damage is fine, it is our surviability that is an issue. The other day I was in a PvP group and a member says over TS "I hope there are some Mages in this one, they make for easy kills". When I commented on it, he said "Sorry Aeonus, forgot you were here". = /
Survivability is definitely a tricky aspect for mages. Some of the difficulty lies in the anecdote you just relayed here. Mages have low HP with high damage potential. I have often heard and seen the primary targets of a group in PvP be either the mage or priest. Preist for obvious reasons, mages for the fact that they will deal ranged damage with slowing potential(frostbolt, etc.). If your friends are talking about taking down mages on TS, that pretty much tells me that mages are being targetted by groups. There isn't a designer solution for that. If a group selects targets, chances are the target will be taken out of the picture.
I think there is also a component which makes the death of a mage feel and seem more brutal, blunt or sudden. With survivability based in escape tactics and avoiding damage for mages, death can be abrupt. It isn't some extra HP that lets you die a little slower or some other aspect which innately extends life. The survival of a mage is primarily performance based and can thus be more frustrating than a defeat when you are wearing plate or have a big health bar.
This is not to place fault or blame anywhere, I'm just saying a mage's death can be more sudden and upsetting than most and it generates feedback related to such a thing. This is possibly why survivability will never go away as a topic of discussion for mages.
Slo-mo Headbang FTW
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6433695&p=#post6437914 | Poster: Tseric at 12/28/2005 6:45:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: So blizzard... |
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Q u o t e:
DEAR TSERIC
I apologize that this thread has gotten so long, and so many moronic posts have been made, both by people defending and attacking what i have said.
I am VERY pleased that a blue responded to this, and respect your response, i feel it is very difficult for me to convey what i am having trouble with through posting, as it is not how i "persuade" so to say, explain how i feel so you can understand it. When a warrior charges me in group pvp (which they will!) there really is nothing i can do. Believe me, i have no problem kiting warriors in 1v1!! The problem is when a warrior with support charges me i can't live, even if i have support. The ONLY way for a mage to survive a warrior/support attack is to have somone crowd control the support, and somone else root/polymorph/fear the warrior then start the fight from that.
You see, i can't have hamstring cleansed, i can't do anything about it. Frostbolt is a 3 second cast and only slows to 60%, coc is an aoe (breaks crowd control nearbye, and has a cooldown) and even then it only slows as much as hamstring, and frost shield is only 70%, what am i suposed to do?
I believe mages need another form of spell that lets them survive this attack, a 2 minute cooldown that removes slow affects, and remove that ability from our pvp trinket, maybe 10% more natural slow from Cone of Cold??
The fact is that i cannot live through a warrior with support, even if i have support, i can't kill the support in time, i can't kill the warrior in time, and i can't crowd control the warrior cause it gets cleansed, and i can't crowd control the cleanser cause i get killed before poly will go off...
I understand there may not be anything you can do, but please try to understand what i feel as well. I just can't do anything about it, my range means nothing, and it is very frusterating. I consider myself somone who knows my class, and believe me i completely evaluate the situation to figure out what i can try to do to win, and there isn't anything that will keep me alive, even a priest with +300 healing spamming flash heal on me can't heal through the damage i take.
I understand i am a main target, and there is nothing blizzard can do about that, but what you can do is increase my defense. I would like to think invisibility would help this, but i just don't think it would. I'm not a dev, i can't tell you how to fix it, i can just tell you that it is certainly something i want you to be aware of. If there is another way we can talk, without all the other people posting (although i'm sure there isn't) that would be really nice.
Thanks for posting meng.
EDIT: Also, i know silence might be useful Tseric, but i think we can both agree in pvp, silence would be much better used to stop a heal or a mage aoeing people on a flag... than to save yourself from a warrior.
I am not unfamiliar with your concerns. Believe me, I have heard many ask for what you are asking for.
The issue I have is that you are presenting a lop-sided arguement. You are talking about your actions against a group of players. You make a secondary comment to the effect of a priest not even helping with flash heal, yet you spelled out a solution in your post.
Q u o t e:
The ONLY way for a mage to survive a warrior/support attack is to have somone crowd control the support, and somone else root/polymorph/fear the warrior then start the fight from that.
Now, I wouldn't say that is the ONLY way to beat the encounter. I refrain from using absolute terms when talking about anything in this game, because it simply isn't based on fact.
What you are basically saying here is, "I need good support to fight a group with good support". I understand you think survivability could be better for a mage and we can talk about that more on the mage forums, but I have already commented on that here, anyways.
I've been wanting to get back to those forums for some time and I know some mages have been antsy for continued discussion and an update to some stickies. I'll see you around there ;)
Slo-mo Headbang FTW
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6433695&p=#post6439559 | Poster: Tseric at 12/28/2005 6:56:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: So blizzard... |
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Q u o t e:
...all of which ((except epic gear)) have been said will be nerfed
That has been said? News to me...
Slo-mo Headbang FTW
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6433695&p=#post6439717 | Poster: Tseric at 12/28/2005 6:45:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: So blizzard... *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
DEAR TSERIC
I apologize that this thread has gotten so long, and so many moronic posts have been made, both by people defending and attacking what i have said.
I am VERY pleased that a blue responded to this, and respect your response, i feel it is very difficult for me to convey what i am having trouble with through posting, as it is not how i "persuade" so to say, explain how i feel so you can understand it. When a warrior charges me in group pvp (which they will!) there really is nothing i can do. Believe me, i have no problem kiting warriors in 1v1!! The problem is when a warrior with support charges me i can't live, even if i have support. The ONLY way for a mage to survive a warrior/support attack is to have somone crowd control the support, and somone else root/polymorph/fear the warrior then start the fight from that.
You see, i can't have hamstring cleansed, i can't do anything about it. Frostbolt is a 3 second cast and only slows to 60%, coc is an aoe (breaks crowd control nearbye, and has a cooldown) and even then it only slows as much as hamstring, and frost shield is only 70%, what am i suposed to do?
I believe mages need another form of spell that lets them survive this attack, a 2 minute cooldown that removes slow affects, and remove that ability from our pvp trinket, maybe 10% more natural slow from Cone of Cold??
The fact is that i cannot live through a warrior with support, even if i have support, i can't kill the support in time, i can't kill the warrior in time, and i can't crowd control the warrior cause it gets cleansed, and i can't crowd control the cleanser cause i get killed before poly will go off...
I understand there may not be anything you can do, but please try to understand what i feel as well. I just can't do anything about it, my range means nothing, and it is very frusterating. I consider myself somone who knows my class, and believe me i completely evaluate the situation to figure out what i can try to do to win, and there isn't anything that will keep me alive, even a priest with +300 healing spamming flash heal on me can't heal through the damage i take.
I understand i am a main target, and there is nothing blizzard can do about that, but what you can do is increase my defense. I would like to think invisibility would help this, but i just don't think it would. I'm not a dev, i can't tell you how to fix it, i can just tell you that it is certainly something i want you to be aware of. If there is another way we can talk, without all the other people posting (although i'm sure there isn't) that would be really nice.
Thanks for posting meng.
EDIT: Also, i know silence might be useful Tseric, but i think we can both agree in pvp, silence would be much better used to stop a heal or a mage aoeing people on a flag... than to save yourself from a warrior.
I am not unfamiliar with your concerns. Believe me, I have heard many ask for what you are asking for.
The issue I have is that you are presenting a lop-sided arguement. You are talking about your actions against a group of players. You make a secondary comment to the effect of a priest not even helping with flash heal, yet you spelled out a solution in your post.
Q u o t e:
The ONLY way for a mage to survive a warrior/support attack is to have somone crowd control the support, and somone else root/polymorph/fear the warrior then start the fight from that.
Now, I wouldn't say that is the ONLY way to beat the encounter. I refrain from using absolute terms when talking about anything in this game, because it simply isn't based on fact.
What you are basically saying here is, "I need good support to fight a group with good support". I understand you think survivability could be better for a mage and we can talk about that more on the mage forums, but I have already commented on that here, anyways.
I've been wanting to get back to those forums for some time and I know some mages have been antsy for continued discussion and an update to some stickies. I'll see you around there ;)
Slo-mo Headbang FTW
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6433695&p=#post6439559 | Poster: Tseric at 12/28/2005 6:56:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: So blizzard... *edited post* |
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Q u o t e:
...all of which ((except epic gear)) have been said will be nerfed
That has been said? News to me...
Slo-mo Headbang FTW
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6433695&p=#post6439717 | Poster: Tseric at 12/28/2005 6:45:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: So blizzard... *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
DEAR TSERIC
I apologize that this thread has gotten so long, and so many moronic posts have been made, both by people defending and attacking what i have said.
I am VERY pleased that a blue responded to this, and respect your response, i feel it is very difficult for me to convey what i am having trouble with through posting, as it is not how i "persuade" so to say, explain how i feel so you can understand it. When a warrior charges me in group pvp (which they will!) there really is nothing i can do. Believe me, i have no problem kiting warriors in 1v1!! The problem is when a warrior with support charges me i can't live, even if i have support. The ONLY way for a mage to survive a warrior/support attack is to have somone crowd control the support, and somone else root/polymorph/fear the warrior then start the fight from that.
You see, i can't have hamstring cleansed, i can't do anything about it. Frostbolt is a 3 second cast and only slows to 60%, coc is an aoe (breaks crowd control nearbye, and has a cooldown) and even then it only slows as much as hamstring, and frost shield is only 70%, what am i suposed to do?
I believe mages need another form of spell that lets them survive this attack, a 2 minute cooldown that removes slow affects, and remove that ability from our pvp trinket, maybe 10% more natural slow from Cone of Cold??
The fact is that i cannot live through a warrior with support, even if i have support, i can't kill the support in time, i can't kill the warrior in time, and i can't crowd control the warrior cause it gets cleansed, and i can't crowd control the cleanser cause i get killed before poly will go off...
I understand there may not be anything you can do, but please try to understand what i feel as well. I just can't do anything about it, my range means nothing, and it is very frusterating. I consider myself somone who knows my class, and believe me i completely evaluate the situation to figure out what i can try to do to win, and there isn't anything that will keep me alive, even a priest with +300 healing spamming flash heal on me can't heal through the damage i take.
I understand i am a main target, and there is nothing blizzard can do about that, but what you can do is increase my defense. I would like to think invisibility would help this, but i just don't think it would. I'm not a dev, i can't tell you how to fix it, i can just tell you that it is certainly something i want you to be aware of. If there is another way we can talk, without all the other people posting (although i'm sure there isn't) that would be really nice.
Thanks for posting meng.
EDIT: Also, i know silence might be useful Tseric, but i think we can both agree in pvp, silence would be much better used to stop a heal or a mage aoeing people on a flag... than to save yourself from a warrior.
I am not unfamiliar with your concerns. Believe me, I have heard many ask for what you are asking for.
The issue I have is that you are presenting a lop-sided arguement. You are talking about your actions against a group of players. You make a secondary comment to the effect of a priest not even helping with flash heal, yet you spelled out a solution in your post.
Q u o t e:
The ONLY way for a mage to survive a warrior/support attack is to have somone crowd control the support, and somone else root/polymorph/fear the warrior then start the fight from that.
Now, I wouldn't say that is the ONLY way to beat the encounter. I refrain from using absolute terms when talking about anything in this game, because it simply isn't based on fact.
What you are basically saying here is, "I need good support to fight a group with good support". I understand you think survivability could be better for a mage and we can talk about that more on the mage forums, but I have already commented on that here, anyways.
I've been wanting to get back to those forums for some time and I know some mages have been antsy for continued discussion and an update to some stickies. I'll see you around there ;)
Slo-mo Headbang FTW
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6433695&p=#post6439559 | Poster: Tseric at 12/28/2005 6:56:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: So blizzard... *edited post* |
| |
Q u o t e:
...all of which ((except epic gear)) have been said will be nerfed
That has been said? News to me...
Slo-mo Headbang FTW
| | | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6433695&p=#post6439717 |
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